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Unread 2020-01-11, 07:44 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by mild83 View Post
I can't believe nobody is addressing the elephant in the room.

The Soleimani hit was orchestrated by Iran and Trump. Soleimani had gained too much power, more than a religious dictatorship was comfortable with. Iran sold out the general, a script was written where no more Americans would lose their lives. The problem is Iran shot down that plane full of civilians. That's on Trump, 100%. If he wouldn't have green lit Soleimani, those missiles would not have been fired.
This makes perfect sense. The leader's of iran do like when someone gains that kind of power and might challenge them. Sort of like our deep state. They could play trump as a usfull pawn to take him out.
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Unread 2020-01-11, 07:51 AM   #152
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Are you inferring this or has this conspiracy theory been confirmed somewhere?

I honestly don't see how Iran making a mistake and shooting down that plane is on Trump. You could just as easily say if they wouldn't have attacked out embassy then it wouldn't have happened either. Unless theres something I'm missing here.
I think the contractor was murdered, by way of Soleimani direction, and it gave the opportunity to take out a powerful general of terror, let Iran’s dictatorship look hands-off in offing a very powerful figure that had possibly gotten too big for his britches, Iran to peacock a little bit, then everyone backs away, saving face.

Unfortunately, Iran’s missiles were not as great as they thought (their missiles are regarded as their major strength of their military hardware) and innocent civilians paid the price.

I just hope our countrymen on our northern border are prepared when JT sends in the Mounties when he blames Trump for all of the Canadian lives lost.
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Unread 2020-01-11, 07:53 AM   #153
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I do respect that Iran has owned up to shooting down the airliner as opposed to Putin who hasnt.
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Unread 2020-01-11, 11:31 AM   #154
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Let's say it's true that this was a coordinated effort between America and Iran. I see two potential consequences with that. First, it gives Iran justification to attack us again in the future, should they desire to for whatever reason. Second, undoubtedly not everyone in Irans leadership would be aware of this plot and some will feel a deep desire for revenge which could lead to rogue actions by individuals within their military. I do not see this being as easily containable as you would hope should this theory be true but it does make sense.
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Unread 2020-01-11, 11:57 AM   #155
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Let's say it's true that this was a coordinated effort between America and Iran. I see two potential consequences with that. First, it gives Iran justification to attack us again in the future, should they desire to for whatever reason. Second, undoubtedly not everyone in Irans leadership would be aware of this plot and some will feel a deep desire for revenge which could lead to rogue actions by individuals within their military. I do not see this being as easily containable as you would hope should this theory be true but it does make sense.
I don't think Iran would get that idea. They are well aware of their capabilities (or lack thereof). That's why this works so perfectly. They were able to "strut" for the rest of the ME, pound their chest, while pulling off the perfect hit while not putting off the followers of Soleimani.

Trump gets to show that he talks the talk and walks the walk while defending our fellow Americans abroad.
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Unread 2020-01-11, 12:15 PM   #156
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Now that trump helped iran. They will create some good outcomes for Trump to help him get relected.

A little quid pro quo.
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Unread 2020-01-11, 04:15 PM   #157
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Trump doesn't want to go to war, he just wants to look tough, even if it puts US troops in danger
  • President Donald Trump's decision to kill Iran's top general was primarily about optics and looking tough to his base, even at the expense of placing US troops and interests in danger, experts and former officials believe.
  • "He strikes me as someone who makes decisions based entirely on how he thinks something is going to look to his base on a 12-hour news cycle, if not less," Hussein Ibish, a senior resident scholar at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington, told Insider.
  • "This operation wasn't a strategic or even a tactical maneuver; it was in large part a political act disguised as a military operation," Ned Price, a former National Security Council official under the Obama administration, told Insider.

Less than a week into 2020, President Donald Trump's desire to look tough pushed the US and Iran to the brink of war and placed US service members in danger, top experts and former US officials say.

Early on January 3 Iraqi time, Trump ordered the drone strike that killed Maj. Gen. Qassem Soleimani, widely considered the second most important figure in Iran after Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

The Soleimani strike raised fears of a new war in the Middle East and was the most stunning use of a decapitation strike of a senior foreign military leader by the US military since World War II. It sparked the only direct attack on US forces or allies that Iran has openly claimed since the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979.

"For Trump, everything is political — even this profoundly dangerous escalation," Ned Price, a former National Security Council official under the Obama administration, told Insider.

It's an election year and Trump, a former reality TV star who's perpetually conscious of his public image, has already sought to use the deadly strike to raise money for his 2020 reelection campaign via Facebook ads, emails, and text messages. "ANOTHER dead terrorist," the subject line of one such email to supporters said, per ABC News.

"This operation wasn't a strategic or even a tactical maneuver; it was in large part a political act disguised as a military operation," Price said. "That's why it's not at all surprising that the Trump campaign has fundraised off the strike."

Echoing this perception, Hussein Ibish, a senior resident scholar at the Arab Gulf States Institute in Washington, told Insider, "Trump is a unique president insofar as he only does politics, and never policy ... He strikes me as someone who makes decisions based entirely on how he thinks something is going to look to his base on a 12-hour news cycle, if not less. So it's all, always politics, to the exclusion of policy altogether."

Less than 24 hours after Soleimani was killed, Trump was touting the drone strike at an "Evangelicals for Trump" rally in Florida.

"Qassem Soleimani has been killed and his bloody rampage is now forever gone," Trump said to an audience at a Miami megachurch.

Former Secretary of State John Kerry has apparently not been impressed with Trump's handling of this, telling CNN on Friday that Trump has been "reckless" and "impulsive."

Kerry added that Trump "likes to think it makes him look tough," but said his approach to Iran has actually shut the door to any chance at diplomacy.

'Despite the attack on Soleimani, he likely would prefer to avoid escalation that led to a general war'

After a week of tensions and threats following the strike, the US and Iran backed off from entering a wider conflict.

"To the people and leaders of Iran: We want you to have a future and a great future — one that you deserve, one of prosperity at home, and harmony with the nations of the world," Trump said in a speech on Thursday. "The United States is ready to embrace peace with all who seek it."

Experts say Trump's asserted desire to avoid war is genuine.

"Trump has made clear his interest in reducing the US military footprint in the Middle East. Thus, despite the attack on Soleimani, he likely would prefer to avoid escalation that led to a general war between the United States and Iran," Michael Horowitz, professor of political science and the interim director of Perry World House at the University of Pennsylvania, told Insider.

Horowitz added, "Similarly, Iran's leaders, while wanting to look tough in responding to the American attack on Soleimani, likely want to avoid a general war that would threaten the future of their regime, given American military power."

But, even after this week's deescalation, the parameters that nearly pushed the two countries over the edge are still in place. They may not be at war, but this historic standoff is far from over.

And though he moved away from conflict, Trump was still boasting about the Soleimani strike at a 2020 campaign rally on Thursday night.

Trump, without evidence, claims Soleimani "was actively planning new attacks & he was looking very seriously at our embassies and not just the embassy in Baghdad, but we stopped him and we stopped him quickly, and we stopped him cold."

'This is entirely about domestic politics and how things look on TV to Trump's base'

Trump and his advisers have said that the strike was meant to thwart an "imminent" threat, but have offered few details and inconsistent explanations as to what that means.

The wishy-washy response has raised many questions about the overall rationale behind pulling the trigger on a senior foreign military leader, particularly given it prompted a retaliatory missile attack from Iran at US and coalition forces. There were no US casualties, but it was an unsettling moment for the region and the wider world.

Rep. Justin Amash, a former Republican who became an independent in July, excoriated the administration over its conflicting messages on the strike in a tweet on Friday.

"When President Trump lies or embellishes on a topic this sensitive, and administration officials then parrot his claims to avoid drawing his ire, the situation becomes extremely dangerous for our troops and the American people," Amash said.

The series of events leading up to the strike can be traced back to a late December rocket attack from an Iran-backed Shia militia, Kataib Hezbollah, that killed an American contractor and injured several US service members in Kirkuk, Iraq.

Trump responded by ordering airstrikes against the militia, killing dozens. The airstrikes prompted a violent protest at the US Embassy in Baghdad. The optics of this were seemingly the last straw for Trump, who has made it clear he did not want to see an incident similar to the fatal attack on the US consulate in Benghazi, Libya, in 2012.

The president did not want to look weak by not offering a response, officials told The Washington Post, and was partly motivated by lingering consternation over negative coverage of his decision to not hit back at Iran when it downed a US drone in June.

"At the core of this strike was Trump's desire to appear tough, especially as the attack against the US Embassy in Baghdad had elicited comparisons to Benghazi," Price said.

Similarly, Ibish said, "This decision had a great deal to do with the images of the US Embassy in Baghdad being besieged by supporters of Kataib Hezbollah, set on fire and so forth ... Trump wanted to be absolutely sure that no one could accuse him of having a 'Benghazi' of his own. So he chose a rather extreme reaction."

"This is entirely about domestic politics and how things look on TV to Trump's base and other Americans given the various muscle memory echoes it provokes," Ibish added

'The cost to the US is potentially very high'

During his 2016 campaign, Trump bashed the foreign policy decisions of previous administrations, lambasting his predecessors for getting the US bogged down in lengthy, costly conflicts in the Middle East. He promised things would be different with him in the White House and has continued to make such pledges.

"Fighting between various groups that has been going on for hundreds of years. USA should never have been in Middle East," Trump said in a series of tweets in October. "The stupid endless wars, for us, are ending!"

Roughly three months later, Trump gave the order for a drone strike that took out Iran's most important military leader. The US considered Soleimani to be a terrorist and the group he led, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps' elite and secretive Quds force, to be a terrorist organization. Soleimani, widely described as one of the most charismatic figures in the region, built a network of Shia militias that have caused problems for the US for years. He's linked to the deaths of least 608 US service members in Iraq.

There is widespread consensus among Iran watchers that Soleimani was a malign actor who posed a consistent threat. But many have also said that Trump did not think through the consequences of taking out a senior military leader of another country, and that he could've established deterrence or a red line without taking such an extreme action.

"Deterrence is restored," Ibish said, but added that the "the cost to the US is potentially very high."

Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, a powerful Iraqi militia leader and close ally of Iran, was killed alongside Soleimani in the January 3 strike. Ibish said their deaths "will be tactically extremely effective" for the US, but the "strategic value" of their killings "is very much in doubt."

"I would be a lot less skeptical if I believed the president and even the administration in general had anything like a clear strategy, or even a well-defined goal, regarding Iran policy," Ibish added. "I have no confidence the
president and the administration have a clear sense of what they're going to do next. And that makes me very nervous."

Meanwhile, Price also said that Trump's approach to Iran more generally is linked to his desire to undermine former President Barack Obama — particularly via dismantling the Iran nuclear deal.

"What set off this cycle of escalation was Trump's decision — against the advice of his national security team — to abandon the Iran deal," Price said. "He did so not because it made us any safer, far from it. He did so because he desperately wanted to be able to trash another legacy achievement of his predecessor notwithstanding the costs to our national security."
This is all about the orange image and protecting it above all else, just like I said.Trump and his supporters conflate being American with their identity as human beings. So whatever THEY are is what a "real" American is. Since thats a complete lie, they have to prop up this false image to protect themselves from being faced with the reality of this lie because this identity is what they based all their self worth on.

White conservative Christian American (for the most part). In their minds, they are of the dominant race, believe in the correct God and belong to the correct political party as well as being a citizen of the best country in the world. They are also victims of a vast liberal conspiracy that seeks to hold them down unjustly as they are the "real" owners of this country. This enemy is both so strong as to cause them to fail by oppressing them, and so weak and stupid that they are on the wrong side of everything while allowing the world to take advantage of us. Just as they themselves are vastly superior to these people but at the same time, so weak that they are perpetual victims of their evil schemes.

Therefore America itself isn't what is being protected by Trump's actions and never will be. Buts its the orange image that his supporters have propped up as the avatar of the lie that is to be protected at all costs. Even at the cost of America itself. Trump is merely the manifestation of his supporters collective false image that has been cultivated for decades by various means. Right wing talk radio and Fox News being 2 major contributors. He's basically an empty vessel inhabited by a tulpa or a golem, created by their hivemind of victimhood and hatred.

He reflects back to them their false image of strength, superiority, intelligence, and perseverance in the face of never ending persecution. And just like in the Greek myth of Narcissus, they've become so enamored with their reflection that they can't look away to their own (and now ours) detriment.

If Trump gets exposed for being a weak, morally bankrupt fraud, that means they get exposed for being weak, morally bankrupt frauds. Then the image would die and since they are nothing but that image, its death would expose something that they decided a long time ago was so ugly and horrifying that they will do anything to avoid having to face it. Their true selves.

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Unread 2020-01-12, 10:40 AM   #158
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The US reportedly sent secret messages to Iran via Swiss intermediaries, urging not to retaliate too strongly and further provoke Trump
  • The United States used Swiss intermediaries to urge Iran not to retaliate so strongly that it would provoke President Donald Trump, The New York Times reported Saturday.
  • The Swiss embassy in Tehran has long been used by the US government as a backchannel to communicate with the Iranians, according to The Wall Street Journal.
  • After receiving the message from the US, Iran responded by striking military bases housing US forces, though leaving no American casualties, and sending a message saying there would be no further retaliation for now.
  • The Times reported that that message ultimately convinced Trump to stand down.
  • Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.

United States officials used a secret backchannel to communicate with Iran in recent days, sending messages via Swiss intermediaries warning Iran not to retaliate so harshly that it would further provoke President Donald Trump, The New York Times reported Saturday.

The messages came not long after the Trump administration authorized strikes that killed the top Iranian commander Qassem Soleimani, immediately escalating tensions between the US and Iran.

The Wall Street Journal reported earlier Saturday morning that the Trump administration sent an encrypted fax to Iran just hours after killing Soleimani, warning not to escalate.

The message set off several days' worth of communications between the two countries, using Swiss intermediaries. The Swiss embassy in Tehran has been used by the American government to communicate with Iran since the 1979 Iranian Revolution.

"We don't communicate with the Iranians that much, but when we do the Swiss have played a critical role to convey messages and avoid miscalculation," one senior US official told The Journal.

The Times reported that the secret messages sent after Soleimani's killing urged Iran not to escalate tensions to the point where Trump would feel obligated to strike back even harder.

After receiving the message, Iran responded by firing more than a dozen ballistic missiles at two Iraqi military bases housing US forces, though no Americans were killed.

According to The Times, Iran then sent a message back to the US via the Swiss saying there would be no further retaliation for now.

The newspaper reported that that message was forwarded to Washington within five minutes, and convinced Trump to stand down.

It's still unclear whether Iran will seek to retaliate further in the near future.
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He literally CAN'T. He's a slave to his grandiose false image. He is not in control of himself at ANY time whatsoever. Insults require immediate and sudden responses because they are attacks on this image.
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Which means he will see any provocation by Iran as a personal insult and an attack on his image which will cause him to impulsively respond with reckless abandon in an attempt to assert his power for the world to see.
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The Times reported that the secret messages sent after Soleimani's killing urged Iran not to escalate tensions to the point where Trump would feel obligated to strike back even harder.
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Village idiot once again.
Remind me, who's the village idiot again?

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Unread 2020-01-13, 10:58 AM   #159
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I can't believe nobody is addressing the elephant in the room.

The Soleimani hit was orchestrated by Iran and Trump. Soleimani had gained too much power, more than a religious dictatorship was comfortable with. Iran sold out the general, a script was written where no more Americans would lose their lives. The problem is Iran shot down that plane full of civilians. That's on Trump, 100%. If he wouldn't have green lit Soleimani, those missiles would not have been fired.
Ok blaming Trump for Iran shooting down a civilian airliner is just fucking dumb. That's 100% on Iran for fucking that one up.
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Unread 2020-01-13, 01:50 PM   #160
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Ok blaming Trump for Iran shooting down a civilian airliner is just fucking dumb. That's 100% on Iran for fucking that one up.
I have been seeing this argument being made all over the place. Its infuriatingly stupid and just gives the right more credibility when they say shit about the left hating America and rooting for Iran. Theres literally no point to blame this on Trump and its probably being focused on because bad consequences havent resulted (at least not yet) from him killing Solemani so they're looking for anything to point their finger at. This is a case where I will completely agree that hatred of Trump is blinding these people into their position that he is responsible for this tragic event. Hes not and any suggestion he is undermines our country and potentially emboldens an enemy. Fuck these people.
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Unread 2020-01-13, 03:21 PM   #161
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Eh, its basically "None of this would have happened had you not rattled the cage." Its the same shit the right has been pulling as well. Its disingenuous.
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Unread 2020-01-13, 03:56 PM   #162
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Sure but to use this tragic event to stoke the worlds anger at us even more is pointless. What does it accomplish other than an ego based need to point anger at a perceived justified target? I dont care if the right has done it too (like blaming Obama for them having the missiles in the first place which is equally as dumb), it's just shooting ourselves in the foot at this point. It makes the anti Trump people look irrational and it adds fuel to potential enemy fire. It's not like Trump or his supporters will ever take responsibility for literally anything anyways. No need to try this hard to pin something like this on them and embolden their persecution complex.
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Unread 2020-01-13, 04:09 PM   #163
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he was just pointing out the argument being made and then dismissing it while pointing out the hypocrisy of outrage...

he wasn't justifiying or supporting any of it
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Unread 2020-01-13, 06:35 PM   #164
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Shit is going to explode in Iran

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Unread 2020-01-13, 06:47 PM   #165
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I know. I just feel like we need to call this type of stuff out and be better than that or else what leg do we have to stand on when calling them out? And I mean "we" as in the people who dont sacrifice our adherence to basic morals and principles for the sake of maintaining the orange image. I dont think we should sacrifice those things for the sake of exposing it either.
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Unread 2020-01-13, 08:28 PM   #166
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I know. I just feel like we need to call this type of stuff out and be better than that or else what leg do we have to stand on when calling them out? And I mean "we" as in the people who dont sacrifice our adherence to basic morals and principles for the sake of maintaining the orange image. I dont think we should sacrifice those things for the sake of exposing it either.
I'm not sure I follow you?

What does this have to do with Trump?
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Unread 2020-01-13, 08:56 PM   #167
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I'm not sure I follow you?

What does this have to do with Trump?
I was responding to phreak. Just making the point that in order to maintain any semblance of integrity when criticizing Trump, you have to be willing to call out bullshit on both sides of the fence. If something isnt true or I find it unfair, I dont care who it favors/disfavors, I'm gonna speak up about it. People can think what they want about how biased they believe me to be but I've done that for Trump several times and Id do that for you, DIY and even JW.
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Unread 2020-01-13, 10:38 PM   #168
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And now there administration is changing it's answers on why. It's like WMD all over again.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/polit...ale/index.html

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Unread 2020-01-13, 10:38 PM   #169
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Without recent escalations, Iran plane crash victims would be ‘home with their families’: Trudeau

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says the 57 Canadians killed when Iran shot down Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752 would be alive if not for recent escalations in tensions in the region.

Trudeau spoke with Global National‘s Dawna Friesen on Monday about the Canadian response to the plane crash and the ongoing work happening to support the families, identify the victims, and hold Iran to account in the investigation into how the missile that took down the plane was fired.

“If there were no tensions, if there was no escalation recently in the region, those Canadians would be right now home with their families,” said Trudeau.

“This is something that happens when you have conflict and war. Innocents bear the brunt of it and it is a reminder why all of us need to work so hard on de-escalation, moving forward to reduce tensions and find a pathway that doesn’t involve further conflict and killing.”

His comments come ahead of a meeting being hosted by Canada on Thursday in London, U.K., in which members of the International Coordination and Response Group are set to lay out their next steps for pushing for credible answers and access to black box data.

Trudeau said the goal of the meeting will be looking at ways to demand justice.

“I think full admission, acknowledgment of responsibility and some form of compensation is going to have to come.”

Trudeau has faced repeated questions over the past week on whether he believes U.S. President Donald Trump also bears some responsibility for the incident, given that it came just hours after missile strikes by Iran were launched in response to his targeting and killing of Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani on Jan. 3.

Iran initially denied shooting down the Ukrainian aircraft just moments after takeoff from Tehran’s international airport on Jan. 7, 2020.

Officials admitted doing so days later after Trudeau gave a press conference saying Canada and its allies had intelligence suggesting Iran had fired the missile.

Iran said its military mistook the aircraft for an incoming hostile target.

Soleimani was Iran’s second-in-command and the architect of its campaign to expand influence across the Middle East.

His death immediately sparked protests in Iraq and Iran against the U.S. but within days, those protests took aim at the Iranian government for downing the aircraft. Of the victims killed in the resulting crash, more than 80 were Iranian.

Those protests are calling for accountability but police in Iran have reportedly begun using live ammunition and tear gas to break them up.

Trudeau referenced what he described as the “hurt” and “frustration” of victims’ families in Iran and said the protests “should be heeded very carefully by the Iranian government.”

He also said he spoke with Trump about the incident.

“I have spoken to him and I have talked about the need to de-escalate tensions,” he said. “I’ve talked about the tremendous grief and loss that Canadians are feeling, and the need for clear answers on how this happened and how we’re going to make sure it never happens again.”

But he said the focus for him and the Canadian government right now remains on the victims, even as it could be “weeks, perhaps even months” before the victims are repatriated for burial.

“The grief they’re going through is not to be consoled right now. They want answers, they’ve expressed anger and outrage and also immeasurable pain,” he said.

“I am hurt like all Canadians. I am angry like all Canadians. But unlike many people I have a job to do that will be able to help these families directly. Getting answers for them is my entire focus right now.”
This is about as good of a response as you could hope for imo. Focus on the tragedy and the actual reality of the situation being that because of leaders swinging their dicks and using people as pawns in military actions, pointless deaths of innocents occurs, no matter what conflict were talking about. The Iranian people dont want to go to war with us, they are not our enemy. Our enemies are leaders who want to play out their power fantasies at the expense of the very people they're supposed to be protecting.
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Unread 2020-01-14, 12:54 PM   #170
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I love how this just gets glossed over. Our President lied to the entire country about this attack and its like no one even cares.
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Unread 2020-01-14, 12:56 PM   #171
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Sort of like with sadam and binladen.
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Unread 2020-01-14, 01:09 PM   #172
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Sort of like with sadam and binladen.
Sometimes I don't think you realize just how much you make my points for me.

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Unread 2020-01-14, 01:59 PM   #173
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Sort of like with sadam and binladen.
Interesting how you pull Bin Laden in on this, except there was nothing but universal support for dispatching him and there was never a question on the reason. The same cannot be said for Saddam or Soleimani.
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Unread 2020-01-14, 04:09 PM   #174
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Sort of like with sadam and binladen.
So youre saying Osama Bin Laden was no more important than this guy? Someone nobody knew knew of while he was still alive? So youre saying both attacks on the WTC and the attacks on the US barracks were not important?

How could you say that? Are you a fucking terrorist? Over 3000 people lost their lives. Not only are you a complete idiot but you seem to also be a troop hating traitor.
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Unread 2020-01-14, 05:17 PM   #175
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So youre saying Osama Bin Laden was no more important than this guy? Someone nobody knew knew of while he was still alive? So youre saying both attacks on the WTC and the attacks on the US barracks were not important?

How could you say that? Are you a fucking terrorist? Over 3000 people lost their lives. Not only are you a complete idiot but you seem to also be a troop hating traitor.


I thought you and phreak just referred to that as “some people did something”?

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