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Unread 2013-10-28, 09:11 AM   #151
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Another prime example of Obama's outrageous spending.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 09:31 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Swiftuh View Post
What gigantic hurdles are you talking about?


Drives me nuts when people defend the website and state that people have no idea or appreciation for what it takes to build a website like this. Don't be retarded, we live in the digital age with thousands of massive websites. The Obamacare portal shouldn't have cost more than around a million dollars to produce by a private company. The servers to support its demand already exist and software could have expanded/contracted to more or less servers depending on user demand. This is not rocket science, it's standard practice. Stop pretending that building a website to process data is a new venture that no one understands.
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Another prime example of Obama's outrageous spending.
Do you guys have any clue what a private contractor charges for building a website, let alone a decent one?

Coming from personal experience on this, our department paid about $250k to a small IT company to build a website that did nothing other than allow applications to be submitted that crosschecked an internal Oracle database and accepted payments. It looked like shit too.

Oh, and it was expected to receive less than 5000 applicants. Ever. Oh, and it was back in 2010.

So, don't be naive to think that ANY company on the face of the earth would try to take this complex and demanding of a portal on for $1M. Again, this is coming from PERSONAL experience, not uneducated speculation.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 10:05 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by ForcFed93 View Post
Do you guys have any clue what a private contractor charges for building a website, let alone a decent one?

Coming from personal experience on this, our department paid about $250k to a small IT company to build a website that did nothing other than allow applications to be submitted that crosschecked an internal Oracle database and accepted payments. It looked like shit too.

Oh, and it was expected to receive less than 5000 applicants. Ever. Oh, and it was back in 2010.

So, don't be naive to think that ANY company on the face of the earth would try to take this complex and demanding of a portal on for $1M. Again, this is coming from PERSONAL experience, not uneducated speculation.
You don't understand pricing for government agencies do you?
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Unread 2013-10-28, 10:59 AM   #154
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they are trying to create a secure portal for hundreds/thousands of insurers to be able to get information from millions of users across 36 states that is verified against almost a dozen federal agency databases, produce information back to the user, calculate subsidies, etc.

its probably the largest undertaking that has been done on the internet. public or private.

bear in mind that this was done by a private company. a private company is the one that has supposedly written 150x the amount of code that when into the Mars Rover that flew itself to Mars, landed and is now reporting data back to us. they were the one's that estimated the cost and the requirements and set it at least 70x the amount you're saying it could've been done for by what I can only imagine to be another private company...

again, I'm not trying to defend the $70-150M number, it sounds ridicilous to me but to pretend like it could be done for a $1M or it isn't hugely complex is moronic.
This is not the largest undertaking on the Internet. That statement is ridiculous.

You should bare in mind that this private company is sucking on the biggest financial tit on the planet, of course they are charging a shit ton. 150x the amount of code for a space program, so what? They probably got paid per line of code, volume means nothing, especially when the damn thing doesn't work... Complex does not mean comprehensive.

The operation and function of this website IS a simple process of data processing and simple mathematics. The volume of users is the only 'challenge', which isn't an issue since the hardware and software already exists on the private market and just needs to be contracted. It is asinine that this 'problem' has gone on this long already. Granted, they should have tested the system a few months before rolling it out, but if they are TRUELY throwing the amount of resources and priority to this project that they say there are... There is no excuse.

My father was a project manager and network/software engineer for sprint. He's worked on some of the largest projects they have ever done. Speaking with him about some of these projects, I can guarantee your statement about Obamacare being the most complex system produced is uneducated rhetoric and complete bullshit. We measure success by success, not massive effort.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 11:05 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by ForcFed93 View Post
Do you guys have any clue what a private contractor charges for building a website, let alone a decent one?

Coming from personal experience on this, our department paid about $250k to a small IT company to build a website that did nothing other than allow applications to be submitted that crosschecked an internal Oracle database and accepted payments. It looked like shit too.

Oh, and it was expected to receive less than 5000 applicants. Ever. Oh, and it was back in 2010.

So, don't be naive to think that ANY company on the face of the earth would try to take this complex and demanding of a portal on for $1M. Again, this is coming from PERSONAL experience, not uneducated speculation.
Your company got had, someone should probably be fired. I'm not basing my claim on uneducated speculation, I'm going off the opinions of several professionals in the industry and also personal experience.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 11:23 AM   #156
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Your company got had, someone should probably be fired. I'm not basing my claim on uneducated speculation, I'm going off the opinions of several professionals in the industry and also personal experience.
You obviously don't understand the concept of the competitive bid process either. This project was shopped around to several companies offering the service and the lowest bid was accepted. So, no, we weren't "had". It was just that their prices are that ridiculous. If they were so exorbitant that you can say we were "had" then surely some of the other companies that bid on it would've been cheaper.

Go ahead and give me some of your personal experience in dealing with contracting IT professionals to deal with large scale projects involving custom interfaces, proprietary database integration, so on and so forth.

And take that times 10,000 and you might have a grasp of the magnitude involved with the Healthcare.gov website.

Think of how many different companies have to be involved and integrated. How many different proprietary systems have to be linked. How many different IT departments all dialed in. How many different types of plans, states, subsidies, etc. It was a MASSIVE undertaking by any stretch of the imagination. Trying to prove it's anything but that is pissing in the wind.

Edit: By the way, I'm not claiming to be an IT professional, systems engineer or anything else. I'm just providing my experience. And thus far, I've heard nothing but "That could be done for under $1M" without any semblance of credibility to follow it.

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Unread 2013-10-28, 11:49 AM   #157
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I love the conservative argument shifting from "the gov't can't manage the whole healthcare insurance system, its too complex and diverse to be run efficiently" while the ACA was being discussed and up to last month... and now its "see how badly Obama fucked this up? it should've been seamlessly done for less than the cost of a jet engine..."

there was some truth to the idea that this was a very big, unwieldy task. to that point, the admin fucked up by not respecting that enough to set expectations and better scheduling. but you're being disingenuous if your argument is that you know an IT guy who says that it could've done this for 3 cases of mountain dew and a pallet of doritos.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...are-98787.html
Quote:
“This is one of the most complex IT projects the federal government has ever undertaken,” said Dan Schuyler, senior technology expert at Leavitt Partners.
I can accept the argument that this was too complex and shouldn't have been done. I think that argument is wrong but at least its based in fact... but the argument that its reasonable to have expected this to be seamless and cheap (by gov't standards) is either disingenuous or misinformed.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 11:57 AM   #158
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LOL ForcFed, just lol.

Because your company got fucked, means the taxpayer should too for a shit ass Obamacare site.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 12:05 PM   #159
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LOL ForcFed, just lol.

Because your company got fucked, means the taxpayer should too for a shit ass Obamacare site.
If by my company, you mean your tax dollars, sure.

Like I said, competitive bid. This isn't just one company that we cherry picked to line their pockets (there are processes in place to prevent that), this was the lower bidder. But the question still stands. If it were so easy, why aren't you out there making a killing undercutting all of the other companies that provide these services?

Sounds like you shouldn't be pointing the finger at Obama, you should be pointing the finger at the contractor.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 12:45 PM   #160
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Seen some people have a hard time signing up. Site simply says "your first name is not unique" what? Does it have to be spelled all crazy like trashaundawnfoofoo? Is that unique enough?
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Unread 2013-10-28, 01:19 PM   #161
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You obviously don't understand the concept of the competitive bid process either. This project was shopped around to several companies offering the service and the lowest bid was accepted. So, no, we weren't "had". It was just that their prices are that ridiculous. If they were so exorbitant that you can say we were "had" then surely some of the other companies that bid on it would've been cheaper.

Go ahead and give me some of your personal experience in dealing with contracting IT professionals to deal with large scale projects involving custom interfaces, proprietary database integration, so on and so forth.

And take that times 10,000 and you might have a grasp of the magnitude involved with the Healthcare.gov website.

Think of how many different companies have to be involved and integrated. How many different proprietary systems have to be linked. How many different IT departments all dialed in. How many different types of plans, states, subsidies, etc. It was a MASSIVE undertaking by any stretch of the imagination. Trying to prove it's anything but that is pissing in the wind.

Edit: By the way, I'm not claiming to be an IT professional, systems engineer or anything else. I'm just providing my experience. And thus far, I've heard nothing but "That could be done for under $1M" without any semblance of credibility to follow it.
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Originally Posted by ForcFed93 View Post
...our department paid about $250k to a small IT company to build a website that did nothing other than allow applications to be submitted that crosschecked an internal Oracle database and accepted payments. It looked like shit too.

Oh, and it was expected to receive less than 5000 applicants. Ever. Oh, and it was back in 2010.
...
So either the website does much more than you stated, or you don't know everything it does.
Last month I worked on end user R&D on a program that ties into 7 proprietary systems that handles scheduling, inventory and shipping logistics across seven distribution centers and 308 locations(inventory over a billion dollars) integration into a few hundred suppliers, corporate email communications, an interfaced FTP system, employee resources/records, insurance processes, GPS logistics for employee vehicles and many other functions that I don't know/understand. 8 months of development by a small team and 4 months live testing/tweaking in select locations - ~$580k and counting, and the shit works.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 02:07 PM   #162
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You said:


So either the website does much more than you stated, or you don't know everything it does.
Last month I worked on end user R&D on a program that ties into 7 proprietary systems that handles scheduling, inventory and shipping logistics across seven distribution centers and 308 locations(inventory over a billion dollars) integration into a few hundred suppliers, corporate email communications, an interfaced FTP system, employee resources/records, insurance processes, GPS logistics for employee vehicles and many other functions that I don't know/understand. 8 months of development by a small team and 4 months live testing/tweaking in select locations - ~$580k and counting, and the shit works.
Well I'm glad you provided your experience. Our system does a lot more than I stated, but I didn't want to get into the details of things like pre populating forms, accepting payments via an integrated third party system, compiling monthly reports, etc, which should all be expected of it anyway.

As large as you're talking about with your project, I'm sorry to say but it pales in comparison to the scope of the ACA. For you to have that experience and know the level involved and still say that it could be done for under $1M and genuinely believe it, proves to me that you have no realistic idea of exactly how big it truly is. The Feds are either in charge of, or help with 34 states of varying levels of integration.

I'm not sure exactly how many large insurers must be on board with it as well, but getting all of them to work seamlessly is no small task either.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 02:26 PM   #163
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I love the conservative argument shifting from "the gov't can't manage the whole healthcare insurance system, its too complex and diverse to be run efficiently" while the ACA was being discussed and up to last month... and now its "see how badly Obama fucked this up? it should've been seamlessly done for less than the cost of a jet engine..."

there was some truth to the idea that this was a very big, unwieldy task. to that point, the admin fucked up by not respecting that enough to set expectations and better scheduling. but you're being disingenuous if your argument is that you know an IT guy who says that it could've done this for 3 cases of mountain dew and a pallet of doritos.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...are-98787.html


I can accept the argument that this was too complex and shouldn't have been done. I think that argument is wrong but at least its based in fact... but the argument that its reasonable to have expected this to be seamless and cheap (by gov't standards) is either disingenuous or misinformed.

My argument is this, don't rustle my jimmies. Leave me alone. I've been barely getting buy this year and caring for my two disabled parents and sick wife. My dad's insurance is dropping them because of this legislation, putting them in a hole of just over $1000 per month. To compensate, next year I have to come up with about $15,000 of additional taxable income to make up the difference. Tell me more about how this fantastic program is going to benifit my struggling family and save me money. There are real world consequences to this bullshit, and I hope it shits on your life worse than it has mine, because your asking for this, not me.

Have fun supporting this monster. You clearly have no Idea what it's actually going to cost socially to reach the end game.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 02:42 PM   #164
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Well I'm glad you provided your experience. Our system does a lot more than I stated, but I didn't want to get into the details of things like pre populating forms, accepting payments via an integrated third party system, compiling monthly reports, etc, which should all be expected of it anyway.

As large as you're talking about with your project, I'm sorry to say but it pales in comparison to the scope of the ACA. For you to have that experience and know the level involved and still say that it could be done for under $1M and genuinely believe it, proves to me that you have no realistic idea of exactly how big it truly is. The Feds are either in charge of, or help with 34 states of varying levels of integration.

I'm not sure exactly how many large insurers must be on board with it as well, but getting all of them to work seamlessly is no small task either.

It's all about project management. I do understand the general scope of the ACA. You don't seem to understand that there are multiple ways of accomplishing a project, fast and expensive is always a bad idea. They should have taken their time, determined what the hell they were building and what resources it was going to take, then communicated with those resources.

The project I spoke of includes entire revamps of sub-systems after a thorough and deliberate testing for nearly a year, which has proven to be the most expensive part of the project. They didn't have to integrate to every single state with an exchange before they launched. They could have launched in ONE state, and continued working on adding states and expanding as they continued developing on a live system. It doesn't matter if it cost 100k or 500mil, I guarantee you the cost in terms of financial and social damage to the private market and the average joe is much more significant. It's not just that the website is a failure, the ACA itself is just as much of a rushed, hack job, overcomplicated legislative quagmire.

Want to revamp America and socialize healthcare? Okay, cool, it get it. But do it right with the respect it deserves instead of fucking up the lives of millions of people. Have you actually looked at what the coverage is like? It's complete crap compared to even a crappy private plan. You really think this is a beneficial thing that is happening? If I lost my private insurance and had to get Obamacare, I literally couldn't afford the healthcare I'm used to receiving, I would be sicker...
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Unread 2013-10-28, 03:29 PM   #165
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My argument is this, don't rustle my jimmies. Leave me alone. I've been barely getting buy this year and caring for my two disabled parents and sick wife. My dad's insurance is dropping them because of this legislation, putting them in a hole of just over $1000 per month. To compensate, next year I have to come up with about $15,000 of additional taxable income to make up the difference. Tell me more about how this fantastic program is going to benifit my struggling family and save me money. There are real world consequences to this bullshit, and I hope it shits on your life worse than it has mine, because your asking for this, not me.

Have fun supporting this monster. You clearly have no Idea what it's actually going to cost socially to reach the end game.
while I'm sorry that you and your family are feeling the pain of a private company making a decision to drop their health coverage, I don't think that merits you saying fuckall about me and mine nor do I think that it should mean fucking squat about the national healthcare debate. because that's what the ACA is - a modification to the national healthcare system which means the legislation was written to try and make the system better for the nation as a whole. and it seems to do that based on the calculations done by experts in the field.

if your parents are disabled perhaps you should look into Medicaid and Medicare options for them. those programs are designed to help people with disabilities and are typically held in high regard by the people in them. I am truly sorry to hear that your family has been negatively affected but what should that mean to anyone but you in the grand scheme of things. my in-laws are going to be positively affected by the pre-existing conditions being wiped out and getting reasonable insurance rates independent of my father-in-law's job so that he can switch jobs without worrying that her chronic issue coverage won't be denied by his new employer's insurance. does that mean that the law was a national success - just because I have a personal story that's positive? no, it doesn't. just the same way that your negative one doesn't mean its a national failure.

if anything, while you believe that its hurting you in the short term, I would think you'd support any move away from employment-based insurance because then you're no longer at the mercy of someone's bottom line/whim. you and your parents can get better coverage cheaper than you would've without the ACA when the company decided to kick them off their insurance rolls.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 03:35 PM   #166
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This is still going?

Anyone that thinks you can add the uninsured and the heavily ill to a pool of healthy users and not negatively affect the healthy users is fucking high as a kite. No amount of your chatter or Obama's videos or shopping market websites is going to change that FACT. It's a fucking fact!
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Unread 2013-10-28, 03:45 PM   #167
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This is still going?

Anyone that thinks you can add the uninsured and the heavily ill to a pool of healthy users and not negatively affect the healthy users is fucking high as a kite. No amount of your chatter or Obama's videos or shopping market websites is going to change that FACT. It's a fucking fact!
anyone that thinks the uninsured and the heavily ill aren't already part of the pool might just be higher...

hospitals don't do shit for free. they can't. the bill goes to someone and its a FACT that preventative care is obscenely cheaper than care that's been put off and (sometimes literally) allowed to fester.

closing our eyes to the fact that emergency care is the most costly and least-efficient method of treatment that can be conceived doesn't make it go away. people aren't fond of dying, even for their principles in most cases, so they will eventually come in for treatment and the entire system is fee-for-service right now instead of the value-based system we need (fiscally)... our trajectory was simply unsustainable.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 04:39 PM   #168
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OK here are my findings thus far, please correct me if I am wrong. This is such a big joke! I cannot see my options unless I sign up at the site (which may or may not work). How about a transparent site that shows the plans and what is available to me without signing up and let me determine IF I want to sign up?

I was able to find this subsidy calculator on another site, based on this

http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

my annual payment will be about ($5,000.00) nearly the same as what I and the firm pay for now for the 70% plan (Silver) and it is NOT a tax deduction. I currently pay for a 90% plan (I am a business owner). There is no calculator for the exact sliding scale, but based on the number that I can see and their criteria, I would be paying approximately $23,750.00 annually for my current plan.

We currently have 12 employees, if we were to quit paying for their health insurance, our employees would take an average reduction in salary of $15,000/year if they wanted to keep their current coverage.


How is that Affordable Health Care?

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Unread 2013-10-28, 04:45 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by HiLandR View Post
This is still going?

Anyone that thinks you can add the uninsured and the heavily ill to a pool of healthy users and not negatively affect the healthy users is fucking high as a kite. No amount of your chatter or Obama's videos or shopping market websites is going to change that FACT. It's a fucking fact!
You know they already are...right?

The uninsured and heavily ill drive up the cost of care which drives up your current premium. One thing has to change first. Either the cost of care goes down, or the insurance premiums go down. Neither side is going to arbitrarily do that.

Therefore, you have to enact the cause an effect. What will cause the cost of care to go down? Everyone being insured. What will it take to get everyone insured?

What's your solution? How do you propose to get everyone insured? Because that's the ONLY way you're going to fix this problem.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 04:51 PM   #170
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You know they already are...right?

The uninsured and heavily ill drive up the cost of care which drives up your current premium. One thing has to change first. Either the cost of care goes down, or the insurance premiums go down. Neither side is going to arbitrarily do that.

Therefore, you have to enact the cause an effect. What will cause the cost of care to go down? Everyone being insured. What will it take to get everyone insured?

What's your solution? How do you propose to get everyone insured? Because that's the ONLY way you're going to fix this problem.
I am not a politician or a health care expert. Here's my prediction for you, the number of ER walk-ins will remain the same because people will find it easier to pay the annual $75 dollar fee and not give one shit.

I agree with you, but with all the time and money spent, this seems to be a plan hell bent on ruining small business in the US. And it will work!
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Unread 2013-10-28, 05:49 PM   #171
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while I'm sorry that you and your family are feeling the pain of a private company making a decision to drop their health coverage, I don't think that merits you saying fuckall about me and mine nor do I think that it should mean fucking squat about the national healthcare debate. because that's what the ACA is - a modification to the national healthcare system which means the legislation was written to try and make the system better for the nation as a whole. and it seems to do that based on the calculations done by experts in the field.

if your parents are disabled perhaps you should look into Medicaid and Medicare options for them. those programs are designed to help people with disabilities and are typically held in high regard by the people in them. I am truly sorry to hear that your family has been negatively affected but what should that mean to anyone but you in the grand scheme of things. my in-laws are going to be positively affected by the pre-existing conditions being wiped out and getting reasonable insurance rates independent of my father-in-law's job so that he can switch jobs without worrying that her chronic issue coverage won't be denied by his new employer's insurance. does that mean that the law was a national success - just because I have a personal story that's positive? no, it doesn't. just the same way that your negative one doesn't mean its a national failure.

if anything, while you believe that its hurting you in the short term, I would think you'd support any move away from employment-based insurance because then you're no longer at the mercy of someone's bottom line/whim. you and your parents can get better coverage cheaper than you would've without the ACA when the company decided to kick them off their insurance rolls.
You're right, I'm sure my family is the only one negatively effected by this. I'm out, good luck with the bullshit you support.
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Unread 2013-10-28, 11:52 PM   #172
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You're right, I'm sure my family is the only one negatively effected by this. I'm out, good luck with the bullshit you support.
He's a lost cause man. Don't waste your time.
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Unread 2013-10-29, 09:02 AM   #173
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http://news.yahoo.com/obama-administ...222249311.html

Report: Obama administration knew millions wouldn't be able to keep insurance

On June 15, 2009, Obama said this: "We will keep this promise to the American people. If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor. Period. If you like your healthcare plan, you will be able to keep your healthcare plan. Period.”

In 2012, he echoed that sentiment, saying, "“If [you] already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance.”

However, many are finding that not to be the case. More than 300,000 cancellation notices have been sent out in Florida, according to Kaiser Health News, and another 180,000 in California. In New Jersey, the number of cancellations tops 800,000, the Star-Ledger reports.
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Unread 2013-10-29, 09:09 AM   #174
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You're right, I'm sure my family is the only one negatively effected by this. I'm out, good luck with the bullshit you support.
and I'm the only one with a positive story...

point still stands in that its a change to the national system. national statistics matter most. individual stories are alternately happy or tragic, but unfortunately neither should affect the national debate about it much either way.
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Unread 2013-10-29, 09:11 AM   #175
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Jesus, you're full retard ahead on this steaming pile of shit.
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