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Unread 2018-05-02, 11:52 PM   #1
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Originally Posted by torqueburner View Post
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Thanks for the clarification. I can tell you're a very critical thinker.
Trump voters/supporters are a very small group of Christians compared to the overall total. So I wouldn't put to much faith in that matter.
You are correct about are founding fathers. However, I believe it was worded in a way that respects all religious beliefs. Jefferson was a man of science, and a brilliant man. When he sat down to think about mans "intrinsic" rights, out of all his scientific knowledge and philosophical views, he could only think of one place man could receive this from...and that was a creator. So I would agree that they worded it as deists, but it feels very "christian" to me. Thomas Jefferson would read the bible, but would rip out the pages/parts he didn't like, lol.
Believing and trusting in God is a tricky thing. Being agnostic about the matter is no help if one's TRULY seeking God. I've found it's frustrated people more when they give series thought to the question. I'm baffled that people even question that there's a creator (not God specifically). The question should be which creator is the creator, and is this creator a personal creator. The scientific evidence that points towards a creator is undeniable for those who truly want to hear or see this evidence. And for those that find themselves excepting there is a creator, but want to know if he's personal or which "God" is the true God, there's lots of evidence that point towards the right one.
Do you believe in absolute truths?
Yes, it was purposefully worded to include ALL religious beliefs. Including Muslims and atheists. But don't tell that to certain people who say that America is a Christian nation. We were founded on a belief in God, not a belief in a specific god.

I keep hearing about how small this group of Trump supporters are yet he won the election and still has what, a 50% favorability rating? I'd say a large majority of those supporters are hardcore if they still support this man. Where are the Christians speaking out against him? I've seen individuals that are and they speak about how they've been ostracized by other Christians for it. I've seen testimonies from other Christians to this same effect. I don't think this is some tiny single digit percentage.

I do believe there are absolute truths and I do believe there is some sort of creator and purpose for all of this. But I think it's the height of arrogance to assume that any one religion has it all right and yours just so happens to be the one. The Bible was written by men and put together by Catholic leaders. Do you really trust Catholic leaders in regards to the word of God? Judge the fruit of their tree like Jesus said. Their rotten fruits are child fucking and war. They dress themselves in fancy robes and hats where they live in their giant golden towers surrounded by markets and poor people. They support one of the largest pedophilia networks in the world and I never hear a word about it from the anti pedo Trump supporters who do nothing but rant about how it's the liberal elites who rape kids. Not only are they raping kids, they're doing it under the guise of being a man of God. So they are raping these kids physically, emotionally, psychologically and spiritually. It is pure evil in an attempt to completely separate a person from God. They sexually abuse a kid and then they might foever associate that abuse with God. I wouldn't automatically trust anything that has been in their hands.

I look for the truth and bullshit in everything because there is no one person or group that has the complete truth. You can say Jesus does all you want but you're only reading the words of men who are claiming to know what he said. While I believe a large majority of what Jesus said is the truth, I have seen various problems with the Gospels and their 100% complete truth is in question for me. Truely effective lies and deception use truths to mask those lies and deception.

Trump is a perfect example of this. When he first burst onto the political scene in the Republican debates, I absolutely loved everything he was saying. He was speaking pure truth. He was calling out all the politicians on the stage, telling everyone how corrupt the whole system was and how full of shit they all were. Something we all really know but the politicians never talk about because that would be breaking the fourth wall during their little political theater. He presented himself as a guy that tells it like it is and a crusader for truth and America. You cannot underestimate the importance of first impressions. A lot of people still hold on to that view of him to this day contrary to the mountain of evidence that says otherwise. The more he talked, the more he exposed himself and I saw the ugliness and the lies and deception. Then I began to see him for what he truly is and I've been trying to warn people ever since. But in reality, Trump exposed himself for he really was when he first announced he was running for president. His comment about Mexicans coming into America was a message of divisiveness and hate. He painted illegal Mexican immigrants as rapists, murderers and thieves with the caveat that some, he assumes, are good people. When in reality, the opposite is true. The vast majority are good people and yes, some are criminals, just like any group of people. Enforcing our borders is one thing, and something I completely agree with, but demonizing illegal immigrants as a whole is another thing. It's purpose was to incite hateful people and incite the people being hated against while hiding behind the reasonable position of enforcing our borders.

My view of God and his relationship to the world is like this. The default state of everything is emptiness and darkness, like outter space. The absence of light is darkness. The only true source of light in our solar system is the sun. The sun lights up the earth and allows the conditions for it to fill with life. If the sun disappeared, the earth would decay and die. Apply this to humans.

God is love, according to the Bible. Something I agree with. Humanities default state is without God. In order to be connected with God, you need to be shown and taught love from the time you are born, through your parents. If your parents are devoid of real love, they will not be able to give you real love. You might not be fully able to love yourself or believe you deserve love because of this. This can alter your ability to connect with God and your ability to accept and receive love. Childhood abuse can completely sever your ability to ever connect with God. What happens when you sexually, mentally, emotionally and physically abuse a child enough? They can turn into a psychopath that finds pleasure in murder, cannibalism, rape, and all sorts of other abuses. Why is the end road for extreme childhood abuse to create more abuse? These people have been completely separated from love and therefore God. They are completely empty vessels. Black holes that swallow everything around them in an effort to fill a void that is left by the absence of God and love. A void that will never be filled. A void that is attempted to be filled by all sorts of addictions, hate and lusts for power and control over people which lead to ones own destructon and the destruction of others. In the absence of light (God, love), all that's left is darkness (Satan, evil).

Love is what connects us to each other. We experience God through each other with love. I think we were deceived a long time ago to not believe this. We were told by the Old Testament God that it's okay for him to murder people, kill babies and all sorts of other atrocities simply because he said so. Yahweh is the most narcissistic, murderous, psychopathc, megalomaniac that has ever been written about in the history of humanity. He even says so himself and then shames you for questioning his insane abuses. Just about everything he does is straight out of a narcissists playbook. He literally says the only reason he created us was so we could worship him to prove his glory. That's exactly how malignant narcissist treat their children. They are nothing more than tools used to bolster themselves. No wonder the Jews repeatedly disobeyed him. It's almost like it was by design.

God even created golden children and scapegoat children just like a narcissist parent. Isaac and Ishmael. Jews and the Muslims. The effects of this are still being felt to this very day. The Jews feel like they're entitled to certain things because of God and the Muslims hate the Jews because of their assumed superiority. Look up some YouTube videos of Jewish people in Israel talking about how they feel about Arabs. The Muslims are constantly stuck in their scapegoated mindset that tells them that they are the victims of the Jews and whoever else. They are mentally stuck in the past which is very hard to escape when that mindset is constantly reinforced by the reality around them of constant war. Most of the fighting in the Middle East can be reduced down to God picking favorites. Does that sound like the work of a loving God? Sounds more like the work of Satan to me.

The god of the Old Testament is what keeps a lot of people way from believing in Christianity. I know it was one of my main road blocks. What better way for Satan to deceive people then by pretending to be God? And I'm not saying that the whole Old Testament is the work of Satan, just that there was no differentiation between the two. Satan is hardly even mentioned in the Old Testament and Satan actually means adversary or accuser in Hebrew. The Jews don't even believe in Satan as his own entity. Jesus even accused the Pharisees of being the children of Satan. Job is the only time of the Old Testament that Satan is mentioned as his own entity but the whole story is kind of out of line with God and Satan supposedly work. Although it is a perfect example of Yahweh's crazy abuse strategy. God arrogantly brags about having a very loyal follower so Satan uses his arrogance to goad him into a bet. This only exposes Yahweh for the narcissistic, unloving, psychopath that he is. He takes the most righteous man on Earth and takes everything away from him, kills his family and gives him disease, all just so he can prove to Satan that Job will worship him no matter what. And then in Jobs lowest moment, and in his confusion about how God treats his righteous followers, he dares to question God's treatment of him. In the most extreme example of narcissistic rage that I've ever seen, God then precedes to shame him for 10 pages while telling him how little and insignificant he is compared to God. Basically, I made you so I can do whatever I want to you, simply because I can and don't you ever question me. Its almost like his tirade was in response to feeling some kind of shame for abusing a righteous man simply to win a bet. Then once Job apologizes in shame, God rewards him with everything that he lost and more to solidify his Stockholm syndrome.

If everything Jesus and the New Testament says about love is true and God is love, then Yahweh is not God. There is no love in this story for Job from Yahweh. There is only abuse and control tactics to prove a point and bend Job to his will. Job is nothing more than a tool to show God's righteousness and his power. But in reality, in his own arrogance, he exposes himself for the abusive narcissistic psychopath that he is. Reminds me of those parents that abuse their children in front of people in an effort to prove how powerful they are. They don't realize how sick and twisted they look to normal people. The fact that anyone can look at this story as some sort of lesson in God's love is frightening. In my view, it's all apart of the great deception to distort what God and love are.

I know there is a lot here and I kind of went all over the place but I've been examining a lot of my ideas lately in light of what's going on in the world and in my life in general. I don't exactly have an outlet to express all this stuff so I just kind of let it all spill out here.
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Unread 2018-05-03, 05:41 PM   #2
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Great post. There's a lot to unpack in all that, but I'll do my best to try to address it all. Forgive me if I bounce around a bit on subjects, but I'll try to keep it in line with your responses.
There's something like 2.5 billion Christians and growing and that's why I said Trump supporters are a small group compared to the overall total. To be honest though, I don't have a dog in this fight.
No I don't fully trust Catholic leaders. The bible was written by man, but it was as early as 50-60 years after his crucifixion contrary to popular belief. The core premise of the bible has never changed. If one version says a man walked to jesus and held his hand, and another version says he ran to jesus and makes no mention of holding his hand, are we just to throw the whole text out? I don't think so because again, the core premise stays the same, he went to jesus. Look at the Jews. They had NO belief in a dead much less rising messiah. Yet the disciples came to believe so strongly that God raised jesus from the dead, that they were willing to DIE for that belief. That is CRAZY if you know your Jewish religion. Another thing is if someone takes the bible figuratively or literal.... God says I am the door to salvation. I think we can all agree he's not a literal door. It's just a poetic way to get the point across. If you believe in absolute truths and believe in Jesus and his word, then I'm not sure how you can't believe in God. When most people talk about the vengeful God they think of Sodom and the canaanites. What most people don't know or fail to mention is that God kept his people in Egypt for 400 years before sending the Israelites in to what's now Palestine. Why? Because God said the people were not so reprobate that judgement could be brought upon them. The canaanites were a truly evil nation. Read up on the NON-BIBLICAL history of them. They participated in bestiality, and sexually immoral acts with each other and children. They brutally sacrificed woman and children. You might also remember that Abraham pleaded with God to not destroy Sodom. Remember what God said? He asked (Abraham) God to spare the city if he could find just 50 righteous people, then 30, then 10. Each time God told him I will not destroy the city for the sake of those few people, If you can find them. God allowed his own son to be tortured and crucified.This is a hard pill to swallow, but God can take life as he sees fit too. We just don't know what the "bigger picture" is in all this. If you except he's all knowing then we can't even pretend to know what he knows. The biggest blessing he gave us was free will. If we don't have free will, then what's the point of God even creating us? He didn't want robots. You except love. Well, in order to TRULY love you have to have free will. You just have to, no way around it. So all of this evil on earth is the making of our own arrogance. If you think it's improbable that God (of the old testament) exists, I would have to ask relative to what background information? I believe scriptures is very reliable, but it would take me hours to peel each layer apart and layout the Hebrew language and tradition. You have to keep in mind that the Hebrew language was one of the most noun poor languages, which can make it very difficult to understand and dissect. Look at suffering this way. If you take your child to the hospital because he broke his arm, the doctors will come in hold them down re-set the bone, stick you with needles, take your blood and tell you to hold still, all the while he's crying asking you to help him or stop. He doesn't understand that in letting him go through the pain and suffering now, he'll be better weeks from then. I don't have an answer for ultimate pain and suffering, but I do know that there is a greater reward in the long run that God teaches us, and we can't possibly begin to understand what that is besides eternal salvation. How do you have love without evil? Seriously. I see a lot of people reject God when something bad happens to them. Look at Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre, Froyd. Some of the greatest thinkers ever, all abused, or fathers left them at a young age, or there father died. All turned atheist. Darwin, who was on his way to becoming a priest who also passionately was a scientist, rejected God after the sudden death of his young daughter.
As far as what God is the right God. It's fairly easy to pin down if you in fact except there is at least a real "God". Take a look at all the major religions. There's something you will see in common with 99.9% of them that's a major contradiction. They create with matter that already exists, in TIME that already exist. God made it very clear prior to his creation there was NOTHING. What does science now confirm? Prior to the big bang there was NOTHING. Atheist hate the scientific confirmation of this. What does scientist say we are created from? Dust. Start dust more specifically. What does the bible teach God made man from? Dust! It's not so crazy that early man can't give a " scientific" view of creation, because science wasn't even a thing yet. God wouldn't tell them something that made zero sense to them in that manner. I feel if you're willing to except revelation as a real possibility from God, there's no reason to not except his word in other matters. The bible is not a science book for God. I feel he gave it to us The way he did as so not to interfere with are free will thinking. Again, he wants us to TRULY love him a and seek him from our own free will hearts.
There's so much more to this and I feel like I only scratched the surface of your questions. Perhaps through are conversations we'll get to the more "pressing" questions and answers, but I'm multi tasking right now, and trying to put together a half ass coherent post.
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Unread 2018-05-04, 02:14 PM   #3
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Ok, I'm going to start out with some criticisms of the Gospels and I'll go from there.

The contradictions are nothing as small as you suggested. The main issue I have seen is the matter of the timing of the death and the Resurrection, which were suppose to be 3 days inbetween each other. This was in accordance with the time Jonah spent inside the whale, according to Jesus himself, and was the ONE sign Jesus said he would offer as proof that he was who he claimed to be. But he was crucified on a Friday and Resurrected early Sunday morning. That's 2 days at the most.

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Look at the Jews. They had NO belief in a dead much less rising messiah. Yet the disciples came to believe so strongly that God raised jesus from the dead, that they were willing to DIE for that belief. That is CRAZY if you know your Jewish religion.
This is another problem I have with Jesus as a whole. He doesn't actually fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament which is why most of the Jews didn't believe he was the Messiah in the first place. The Messiah was supposed to be a descendant of David but Joseph, not Mary, was supposedly David's descendant. So how can Jesus be blood related to David if Joseph isn't his real father? The Gospels purposefully shoehorn in certain prophetic verses from the Old Testament to bolster their case that Jesus is the Messiah but they misrepresent some of them and outright ignore others. Also, Jesus tells the people how Moses foretold about him but conveniently doesn't mention any verses we can check that with. In fact, I'm pretty sure Moses warns about false prophets who speak about not following the Torah. Something which Christians don't have to do according to Paul since this is a new covenant. This article goes in depth why Jesus doesn't make sense as being the Messiah of the Old Testament and why Jews reject the idea.

https://www.hidabroot.com/article/11...t-Jews-to-Know

I think Jesus' story was added to and embellished in order to hijack the Jewish religion or at least hitch it's wagon to it in order to gain prominence. It was a religion for the Gentiles because they didn't know the Jewish texts enough to realize that Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies.

Jesus also spoke of the coming of the Kingdom of God like it would happen with the lifetime of the people he was living with. He says this repeatedly and if you look at the urgency of which he spoke, it becomes pretty clear that the message was that this was going to happen any day now. Another thing that completely blows my mind, Heaven and Hell are two entirely made up concepts that aren't even truly in the Bible. It is repeatedly said that we die and then we'll be resurrected at the end times to be judged. To either be cast into the abyss or to live on Earth for 1000 years. No where does it talk about a magical place where you see all your loved ones and everyone lives happily ever after.

Were they really willing to die for that belief? Didn't Peter deny him 3 times and the rest of them scatter? I may be remembering that wrong though. Regardless, it is pretty easy to get cult followers to die for their cult. Look at Waco or Jonestown.

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Another thing is if someone takes the bible figuratively or literal.... God says I am the door to salvation. I think we can all agree he's not a literal door. It's just a poetic way to get the point across. If you believe in absolute truths and believe in Jesus and his word, then I'm not sure how you can't believe in God.
I subsribe to the Jordan Peterson way of thinking about the Bible, metaphorical stories that tell certain universal truths. I said I believed in God, just the one more in line with who Jesus spoke about. Not Yahweh. The two Gods couldn't be any more different in my opinion. The idea that God is love is all over the Bible and the New Testament describes love like this:

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"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails"
Yahweh repeatedly speaks about being jealous, boastful, self-seeking, proud and full of wrath. Yahweh cannot be God if God is love and the New Testament is correct about how it describes love. Something is contradicting itself here.

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When most people talk about the vengeful God they think of Sodom and the canaanites. What most people don't know or fail to mention is that God kept his people in Egypt for 400 years before sending the Israelites in to what's now Palestine. Why? Because God said the people were not so reprobate that judgement could be brought upon them. The canaanites were a truly evil nation. Read up on the NON-BIBLICAL history of them. They participated in bestiality, and sexually immoral acts with each other and children. They brutally sacrificed woman and children. You might also remember that Abraham pleaded with God to not destroy Sodom. Remember what God said? He asked (Abraham) God to spare the city if he could find just 50 righteous people, then 30, then 10. Each time God told him I will not destroy the city for the sake of those few people, If you can find them.
While this is a decent point to consider, there are many more atrocities that Yahweh commits for very innocuous crimes. I mean, according to his own laws in Leviticus, you're suppose to stone disobedient children to death and women have to marry their rapists. You can sell your daughter into sex slavery too.

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God allowed his own son to be tortured and crucified.This is a hard pill to swallow, but God can take life as he sees fit too. We just don't know what the "bigger picture" is in all this. If you except he's all knowing then we can't even pretend to know what he knows. The biggest blessing he gave us was free will. If we don't have free will, then what's the point of God even creating us? He didn't want robots. You except love. Well, in order to TRULY love you have to have free will. You just have to, no way around it. So all of this evil on earth is the making of our own arrogance. If you think it's improbable that God (of the old testament) exists, I would have to ask relative to what background information? I believe scriptures is very reliable, but it would take me hours to peel each layer apart and layout the Hebrew language and tradition. You have to keep in mind that the Hebrew language was one of the most noun poor languages, which can make it very difficult to understand and dissect.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the big deal about God sending his "only son" to Earth to be sacrificed for our sins. He was Resurrected not even a week later so what really is the sacrifice here? Plenty of people have been crucified or met much worse deaths. Those same people didn't get to come back to life 3 days later. This just sounds like another abuse tactic to me. Something God can point to and say "You're so terrible that I had to send my only son down there to be killed to pay for how horrible you are. That's how much I love you."

I'm proposing that all religion is bred out of deceit with truth in each one to varying degrees in order to confuse us and keep us in a state of disharmony with God, truth, love and one another. I just think Jesus' philosophy was pretty damn solid when he wasn't relating it to Judaism. There is tons of evidence that the early Israelite's were polytheistic initially and they rewrote Yahweh into one single, dickless god. He use have a wife, Asherah. Which is why they substituted the idea by calling Yahweh's relationship with Israel a marriage.

When I started delving into the Bible more recently, I found myself going back into history as far as I could in order to find the oldest written religious stories and gods. I ended up in Ancient Sumeria reading all sorts of stories about their gods and realizing that so many of the stories in the Bible are just reworked versions of those stories and those gods. Jesus himself is a combination of several different gods and motifs. Dumuzid is a god of shepherds who had a flock of sheep. His wife Inanna (who is actually the Whore of Babylon and also referred to "The Queen of Heaven" in the Old Testament) went into the Underworld and came back 3 days later. During her trip there, she is brought back to life by the bread and water of life. I think this is why Jesus turned water into wine (the symbolic eating of Christ's body and drinking of his blood with bread and wine). The virgin birth motif, the dying and rising motif. I think all of these aspects were added to Jesus' story along with the miracles and connection to the prophecies of the Old Testament in order to package him into a marketable religious leader. The story of Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark have very obvious origins in Ancient Sumerian stories. The Song of Solomon is thought to derive from an earlier Sumerian text about Tammuz (Dumuzid) and the Ishtar (Inanna).

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Look at suffering this way. If you take your child to the hospital because he broke his arm, the doctors will come in hold them down re-set the bone, stick you with needles, take your blood and tell you to hold still, all the while he's crying asking you to help him or stop. He doesn't understand that in letting him go through the pain and suffering now, he'll be better weeks from then. I don't have an answer for ultimate pain and suffering, but I do know that there is a greater reward in the long run that God teaches us, and we can't possibly begin to understand what that is besides eternal salvation. How do you have love without evil? Seriously. I see a lot of people reject God when something bad happens to them. Look at Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre, Froyd. Some of the greatest thinkers ever, all abused, or fathers left them at a young age, or there father died. All turned atheist. Darwin, who was on his way to becoming a priest who also passionately was a scientist, rejected God after the sudden death of his young daughter.
I've never understood the idea that since the world has great suffering in it, that means there must be no God. Seems like bullshit to me. Did these people not realize there was suffering for lots of other people before bad things happened to them personally? Or did they think that those people deserved it for not being Godly enough or something? What would life be without suffering? Show me a movie where there's no conflict or struggle and I'll show you a complete waste of time. The only time I could understand this argument is when the suffering is not caused by another person or that person's own actions. My girlfriend's mom is about to die any day now from cancer and she is in terrible pain everyday while her husband watches and waits day after day. Witnessing that kind of prolonged suffering would certain make me question my faith in a loving and just God simply because that suffering was the result of bad luck and genetics. There seems to be no point in it at all. I don't really look at God as moral and just so it doesn't bother me in that way, God just "is" in my opinion.

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As far as what God is the right God. It's fairly easy to pin down if you in fact except there is at least a real "God". Take a look at all the major religions. There's something you will see in common with 99.9% of them that's a major contradiction. They create with matter that already exists, in TIME that already exist. God made it very clear prior to his creation there was NOTHING. What does science now confirm? Prior to the big bang there was NOTHING. Atheist hate the scientific confirmation of this. What does scientist say we are created from? Dust. Start dust more specifically. What does the bible teach God made man from? Dust! It's not so crazy that early man can't give a " scientific" view of creation, because science wasn't even a thing yet. God wouldn't tell them something that made zero sense to them in that manner. I feel if you're willing to except revelation as a real possibility from God, there's no reason to not except his word in other matters. The bible is not a science book for God. I feel he gave it to us The way he did as so not to interfere with are free will thinking. Again, he wants us to TRULY love him a and seek him from our own free will hearts.
Again, go back and read the Ancient Sumerian texts. Very interesting stuff. Their accounts almost tell a sort of scientific explanation of the creation of the Earth and the universe but in a metaphorical way using different Gods. Make sure you go all the way back to the salt water and fresh water gods where it says life very first started. I agree with the fact that God wouldn't have explained the science behind creation to people who didn't even understand the weather. I grew up in a house that believed every word of the Bible was true and that doesn't even make sense considering factual accuracy was not the point of how stories were told back then.

I don't think there is any one book that has all the answers. If this is truly Satan's world, how could one book have all the truth in it? The great deception is making people think they have the truth and no one else does. Right wing evangelical Christians are the worst example of this kind of arrogance especially since they don't even follow Jesus' words. I think their support of Trump is the perfect manifestation of their foolishness. The marrying of the right with Christianity was the beginning of another deception imo. The Republican politicians could now get away with all sorts of things that were actually against Jesus' teachings but the Christians would blindly support them anyways. This further made the Democrats their enemy in their eyes since they were seen as the non Christian party, which further blinds them to what the Republicans are doing.

The problem with "accepting his word in other matters" is that none of us know what God's words really are. Every religion thinks they have the real word of God. I think it just takes a real desire to find truth to be able to discern it from bullshit. I saw a lot of pure truth in the words of Jesus in the New Testament regardless of whatever perceived problems I may have with it's 100% historical accuracy. I can take truth from anywhere that I find it since truth just always is.

Quote:
There's so much more to this and I feel like I only scratched the surface of your questions. Perhaps through are conversations we'll get to the more "pressing" questions and answers, but I'm multi tasking right now, and trying to put together a half ass coherent post.
Yea I haven't even gotten into what I really think is going on with all of this. I think it's bigger than Christianity or one religion.
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Unread 2018-05-07, 03:00 AM   #4
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I'm beginning to think the Jesus's real purpose was not for the Jewish religion but his life and words were hijacked and distorted. Christ is just love and truth. The New Testament repeatedly speaks about seeking the truth, loving the truth. Those who hate the truth do not love God.

Quote:
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him.
I don't have enough evidence for this claim yet and I am still researching it but I'm starting to think the Messiah of the Jews that is told about in the Old Testament is actually the Antichrist. He is suppose to be a fierce king that conquers all of their enemies. This is just an idea so far so if you have any knowledge of the Old Testament that can disprove this, please share it with me as I have not fully thought all this out yet. I do not have an extensive knowledge of the Old Testament and I do not wish to appear like I do. But I think this makes sense and why he set's up the Temple in Israel and proclaims himself to be God.

Why does Yahweh repeatedly promise people riches and earthly kingdoms? Jesus tells people to reject riches and things of the world.




Let's go back to Sumeria just to cover something else I've been thinking about.

The people of Sumeria also created the significance of the number 6. The 60 second minute, the 60 minute hour. The concept of the 360 degrees of the circle. Just something else to think about considering the number of the beast is 666.

In their stories, the first Gods of the Earth were the Anunnaki. At some point, a new set of Gods known as the Igigi are introduced. They are known as the 6th generation of Gods. They were forced to do labor for the Anunnaki but after 40 days, they rebelled. So because of this, Enki (an Anunnaki God) creates the humans by mixing the blood of a slain rebellious God and clay to replace them.

Quote:
When the gods, man-like,

Bore the labour, carried the load,
The gods' load was great,
The toil grievous, the trouble excessive.
The great Anunnaku, the Seven,
Were making the Igigu undertake the toil.
Enki and Inanna (an Anunnaki goddess) seem to be at odds with each other a lot in the stories. Inanna ends up taking what are called "me's" from Enki.

From Wikipedia
Quote:
In Sumerian mythology, a "me" is one of the decrees of the gods that is foundational to those social institutions, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible.

The mes were originally collected by Enlil and then handed over to the guardianship of Enki, who was to broker them out to the various Sumerian centers, beginning with his own city of Eridu and continuing with Ur, Meluhha, and Dilmun. This is described in the poem, "Enki and the World Order" which also details how he parcels out responsibility for various crafts and natural phenomena to the lesser gods. Here the mes of various places are extolled but are not themselves clearly specified, and they seem to be distinct from the individual responsibilities of each divinity as they are mentioned in conjunction with specific places rather than gods.[1] After a considerable amount of self-glorification on the part of Enki, his daughter Inanna comes before him with a complaint that she has been given short shrift on her divine spheres of influence. Enki does his best to placate her by pointing out those she does in fact possess.[2]

There is no direct connection implied in the mythological cycle between this poem and that which is our main source of information on the mes, "Inanna and Enki: The Transfer of the Arts of Civilization from Eridu to Uruk", but once again Inanna's discontent is a theme. She is the tutelary deity of Uruk and desires to increase its influence and glory by bringing the mes to it from Eridu. She travels to Enki's Eridu shrine, the E-abzu, in her "boat of heaven", and asks the mes from him after he is drunk, whereupon he complies. After she departs with them, he comes to his senses and notices they are missing from their usual place, and on being informed what he did with them attempts to retrieve them. The attempt fails and Inanna triumphantly delivers them to Uruk.[3]

The Sumerian tablets never actually describe what any of the mes look like, but they are clearly represented by physical objects of some sort. Not only are they stored in a prominent location in the E-abzu, but Inanna is able to display them to the people of Uruk after she arrives with them in her boat. Some of them are indeed physical objects such as musical instruments, but many are technologies like "basket weaving" or abstractions like "victory". It is not clarified in the poem how such things can be stored, handled, or displayed.

Not all of the mes are admirable or desirable traits. Alongside functions like "heroship" and "victory" are "the destruction of cities", "falsehood", and "enmity". The Sumerians apparently considered such evils and sins an inevitable part of humanity's experience in life, divinely and inscrutably decreed, and not to be questioned.[4]
Enki is crediting for creating humans. Enki's number is known as 40. The Bible has all sorts of references to the number 40. It rained for 40 days and nights during the flood of Noah (changed from 7 in the Sumeria Flood story told in the Epic of Gilgamesh), the Israelites were lost in the desert for 40 years, Jesus wondered in the desert for 40 days etc. Inanna has many nicknames, one of which is the Whore of Babylon. She is also associated with the planet Venus which was known as "the morning and evening star". Lucifer is also known for this very same association and being called the morning star. The Bible tells of Satan rebelling against God, being cast out of heaven and taking over the Earth as a result. These sound very similar to me. I could go on and on about the similarities between the Sumerian stories and the stories of the Bible but what this is all showing me is that there are layers and layers of distortions being told since the beginning of known history.

Quote:
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness"

Genesis 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Why is everyone completely ignoring this part of the very beginning of the Bible? There are a lot of instances of God implying that he is just one of many. But it's right here in Genesis, plain for anyone to see. And the serpent was clearly telling Eve the TRUTH. Eating the fruit didn't cause Adam and Eve to die and when they ate it, they became like God, which God even admits HIMSELF! They only die because God doesn't want them to be like "one of us" and live forever, so he casts them out of Eden so they can't continue to eat from the tree of life. I'm wondering what part of this points to the serpent being the bad guy here except he got them in trouble with God for telling them the truth. I thought God was the truth? There is deception from the very beginning of this religion. It's so well hidden in plain sight that no one even knows it's there.

Who or what is gaining from all this deception? Not just from the Bible but from the world. And what is the result of this deception? War, disharmony between people of the earth, abuse of your own children and loved ones, loss of the true meaning of the word love, various mental illnesses, violence, corruption, the misleading of people into dark paths. Unless you believe there is no one set of beliefs or principals that can make people as a whole shy away from evil behavior that leads to those things, then someone or something has been lying to us since the very beginning in an effort to keep us blinded to them. Why?
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Unread 2018-05-07, 08:21 AM   #5
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Ok,so this is why I said it would take me HOURS to peel apart each subject matter in the bible. The 3 days is an idiom really. However, this is where it's important to know Jewish tradition. The day begins at sundown at 6:00. So if he was buried prior to that on Friday and raised after 6:00 on Sunday, that would be the third day in Jewish tradition. It's not to be taken so literal in the sense of what we consider 3 days. (72hrs)
Jesus fulfilled I think around 40+ literal phrophecy. It was told he would be pierced through his hand and feet 800 years before crucifixion was a thing!
Now for job this might come off a little weird, but I interpret it differently. let me lay it out like this. The bible says Job was blameless and upright. Now when it talks about Noah it says he is blameless and upright, BUT also that he WALKS WITH God. (metaphorically, obviously). You might say, so what. I think that is a very important detail to note especially if you read Matthew 7:21-23 & Ephesians 2:8-9. You see, Job was very good at following sacrificial tradition and moral tradition, but I think they're trying to convey that job was relying on his offerings and sacrifice to try an appease (a) God. He wasn't believing by faith, but trying to earn it. I think he seen God as some sort of magician. As long as he did and said the right things he EXPECTED to be rewarded. Job lost everything yet instead of talking to God from his heart, he continues to offer up sacrifice and offering, and does this for quite some time. In chapter 1 it says Job doesn't cry out to God for help, but instead tried to appease God by blessing his name. He never addresses God on a personal level.When bad things continue to happen to him he goes on this HUGE rant for several chapters, how he wishes death upon himself so badly. Keep in mind this was no problem earlier when he thought his offerings would "do the trick". So he's wishing death upon himself genuinely and feeling this genuine hate for God in his heart. What does it say in Proverbs 8:36? All who HATE me love DEATH. The bible teaches God is life and to reject life and want death is to reject God. It's very important to walk WITH God and not for him. Job was walking for him, not with him. He really cared about his possessions in return for what he thought his offerings were getting him. He didn't have this personal relationship with God. He was more or less just doing this "stuff" because it seemed to work. It was one of those, "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours". Now fast forward to the conclusion when job opens his heart, yada, yada, ya. God rewards him 3 times as much as before, and he's sharing a personal relationship with God. Now remember what I said earlier about not knowing the bigger plan from God. It was not his intent to punish job, but make him understand in the only way he could, that doesn't interfere with free will. Now there's a LOT MORE context that needs to be added to pull all that together, but that's my take "in a nutshell".
I like Jordan peterson a lot, but there is some flaws in his logic, but that's a separate ball of yarn that I won't jump into right this minute.
So I'm not sure if it's miracles you have an issue with or thinking the stories are just add-ons from other religions? I don't agree that Christianity was made from other religions. There are very distinct concepts that only Christianity have. There are over 5,000 texts supporting scripture. Records of the life of Jesus were written within the first generation of his death. We have better source documents than most major figures of antiquity. The earliest sources we have for Alexander the great was 400 years afterwards, and the legends of him weren't for another 200 years after that. How long it's been really is irrelevant. You take all the manuscripts over the 400+ years it was written and compare them to each other (and most importantly the first copy) to determine the reliability of scripture and where, if any, discrepancy or exaggerations were inserted along the way. This is common practice among all ancient writings, biblical or Not. Not to mention the archeological evidence that supports the old testament cities/people and so forth is a fair bit. I don't think the Jews needed to hijack any other religion simply because what they were writing down was from first hand eye witness accounts. The jews also would not allow other pagan religions to mix with theres. It would be considered blasphemous. Not to mention why would they have then "made up" so many unnecessary stories and made woman a HUGE part of the story claiming they were first hand witnesses that shared this testimony, but everyone knows in those days woman weren't allowed to speak on such matters, let alone testify to them. Also what's unique about Jesus is that he teaches forgiveness, personal relationship, love. As far as Horus and Osiris goes........I'm sorry, but it's misinformation that people spread on the internet and never reveal a PRIMARY source from which it came from. I think it was made up sometime in the 1800's in Germany (but I don't remember exactly) And if you do come across some "primary sources" there not parallel to Jesus at all. Zeitgeist was the first of many claims of Christianity being pagan, but they were quickly laughed off the "screen" because of so much blatant misinformation. There wasn't anything that that was close to Jesus's resurrection. Even the atheist were pissed about it.
Some of your other stuff I'll check into more before I comment on it. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination on the old testament, and i know i barely touched on most of your comments, but I wanted to post something up real quick because I've been very busy lately with work and family and didn't want you to think i wasn't interested in more dialogue.
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Also, your idea about the old testament being a trick of Satan is a VERY interesting thought, to which I'll think about more in depth. It would be an excellent deception. Just had to throw that thought in real quick.

This is a little of topic, but I'm sure it Will play into this conversation later. Do you believe in creation through evolution or do you think it's more of a "super natural" event, or a little of both?
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Unread 2018-05-07, 10:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Ok,so this is why I said it would take me HOURS to peel apart each subject matter in the bible. The 3 days is an idiom really. However, this is where it's important to know Jewish tradition. The day begins at sundown at 6:00. So if he was buried prior to that on Friday and raised after 6:00 on Sunday, that would be the third day in Jewish tradition. It's not to be taken so literal in the sense of what we consider 3 days. (72hrs)
For Jesus to emphasize the 3 day thing so prominently, it seems pretty far fetched to say it's just an idiom. And John has him being crucified a day earlier, so there is contradictions between the Gospels themselves. On that, and many other things. The word of God, if it is indeed inspired by God, should be consistent. If it isn't, then it is not the word of God and should be taken as the words of men, subject to all scrutiny.

Quote:
Jesus fulfilled I think around 40+ literal phrophecy. It was told he would be pierced through his hand and feet 800 years before crucifixion was a thing!
There is debate about the translation of this verse. I do not have the correct answer but there is a debate. That being said, there are so many prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament, it's almost like anyone could have came and pointed to some of them to bolster their claim of being the Messiah. There are so many different ways to interrupt things, the whole book is ripe for misunderstanding and personal interpretation. It just seems like a book God wanted us to have would be a bit more clear and not be so easily used to fool people and lead them into dark paths by evil people.

Quote:
Now for job this might come off a little weird, but I interpret it differently. let me lay it out like this. The bible says Job was blameless and upright. Now when it talks about Noah it says he is blameless and upright, BUT also that he WALKS WITH God. (metaphorically, obviously). You might say, so what. I think that is a very important detail to note especially if you read Matthew 7:21-23 & Ephesians 2:8-9. You see, Job was very good at following sacrificial tradition and moral tradition, but I think they're trying to convey that job was relying on his offerings and sacrifice to try an appease (a) God. He wasn't believing by faith, but trying to earn it. I think he seen God as some sort of magician. As long as he did and said the right things he EXPECTED to be rewarded. Job lost everything yet instead of talking to God from his heart, he continues to offer up sacrifice and offering, and does this for quite some time. In chapter 1 it says Job doesn't cry out to God for help, but instead tried to appease God by blessing his name. He never addresses God on a personal level.When bad things continue to happen to him he goes on this HUGE rant for several chapters, how he wishes death upon himself so badly. Keep in mind this was no problem earlier when he thought his offerings would "do the trick". So he's wishing death upon himself genuinely and feeling this genuine hate for God in his heart. What does it say in Proverbs 8:36? All who HATE me love DEATH. The bible teaches God is life and to reject life and want death is to reject God. It's very important to walk WITH God and not for him. Job was walking for him, not with him. He really cared about his possessions in return for what he thought his offerings were getting him. He didn't have this personal relationship with God. He was more or less just doing this "stuff" because it seemed to work. It was one of those, "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours". Now fast forward to the conclusion when job opens his heart, yada, yada, ya. God rewards him 3 times as much as before, and he's sharing a personal relationship with God. Now remember what I said earlier about not knowing the bigger plan from God. It was not his intent to punish job, but make him understand in the only way he could, that doesn't interfere with free will. Now there's a LOT MORE context that needs to be added to pull all that together, but that's my take "in a nutshell".
Why would God boast about him so much then if he wasn't doing things the correct way? I see what you're saying and I think you're correct in your assessment of him and the problem God had with the Jews as well. But God didn't explain this to Job, he just scolded him. God does not seem to care at all about wanting Job to "walk with him".

Quote:
Then Job replied to the Lord:

2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”
Job didn't open his heart, he simply submitted to his own worthlessness and God was pleased with that. He beat Job into submission with his rageful words after taking everything away from him.

Quote:
7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.
God seems to only care about sacrifices here. If he cares so much about "walking with him", why are sacrifices all that are required of his friends? God's just mad that he got called out for his bullshit and is using Job as an example to point to so he can shame them after he already beat Job into submission. Another narcissist tactic. "Why can't you be more like X child who obeys me because I just beat the shit out of him?" Making Job pray for his friends is even more mental mind fuckery. How is this free will? "Pray to your abuser for your friends who tried to comfort you by calling out my bullshit or I will smite them." It's all mind control and abusive tactics. There is the complete absence of love here.

Quote:
So I'm not sure if it's miracles you have an issue with or thinking the stories are just add-ons from other religions? I don't agree that Christianity was made from other religions. There are very distinct concepts that only Christianity have. There are over 5,000 texts supporting scripture. Records of the life of Jesus were written within the first generation of his death. We have better source documents than most major figures of antiquity. The earliest sources we have for Alexander the great was 400 years afterwards, and the legends of him weren't for another 200 years after that. How long it's been really is irrelevant. You take all the manuscripts over the 400+ years it was written and compare them to each other (and most importantly the first copy) to determine the reliability of scripture and where, if any, discrepancy or exaggerations were inserted along the way. This is common practice among all ancient writings, biblical or Not. Not to mention the archeological evidence that supports the old testament cities/people and so forth is a fair bit. I don't think the Jews needed to hijack any other religion simply because what they were writing down was from first hand eye witness accounts. The jews also would not allow other pagan religions to mix with theres. It would be considered blasphemous. Not to mention why would they have then "made up" so many unnecessary stories and made woman a HUGE part of the story claiming they were first hand witnesses that shared this testimony, but everyone knows in those days woman weren't allowed to speak on such matters, let alone testify to them. Also what's unique about Jesus is that he teaches forgiveness, personal relationship, love. As far as Horus and Osiris goes........I'm sorry, but it's misinformation that people spread on the internet and never reveal a PRIMARY source from which it came from. I think it was made up sometime in the 1800's in Germany (but I don't remember exactly) And if you do come across some "primary sources" there not parallel to Jesus at all. Zeitgeist was the first of many claims of Christianity being pagan, but they were quickly laughed off the "screen" because of so much blatant misinformation. There wasn't anything that that was close to Jesus's resurrection. Even the atheist were pissed about it.
Some of your other stuff I'll check into more before I comment on it. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination on the old testament, and i know i barely touched on most of your comments, but I wanted to post something up real quick because I've been very busy lately with work and family and didn't want you to think i wasn't interested in more dialogue.
I think Jesus's philosophy about love, how to live and seeking truth were 100% real. The ends times stuff too I have to think most of that was real. I'm sure he was crucified and died on a cross. I do not think he was resurrected. I don't know about Horus and Osiris but the dying and rising motif is in the Sumerian "Inanna and the decent into the underworld" story. You can disagree with it being made up from other religions but the fact remains, I could list several stories from religions older than The Bible and show you how they were molded and changed to fit into the Bible. I'm not saying all of them, definitely not all of them, not even most. The Old Testament has a lot of historical truth to it. It's mostly the stories before Abraham that have similarities. I wouldn't call it hijacking, almost all religions do this. They morph current religious stories to fit into their new ones. The events that were real. they probably took those events and painted them with their current religious motifs to make them more palatable for the people of the times. This was just a common way of story telling back then and in no way discredits the whole story if it is not fantastical in nature.


The Israelites weren't not always strictly monotheistic. From Wikipedia

Quote:
Iron Age I (1200–930 BCE): El, Yahweh, and the origins of Israel

Israel emerges into the historical record in the last decades of the 13th century BCE, at the very end of the Late Bronze Age when the Canaanite city-state system was ending.[29] The milieu from which Israelite religion emerged was accordingly Canaanite.[30] El, "the kind, the compassionate," "the creator of creatures," was the chief of the Canaanite gods,[31] and he, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[32] He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, with the goddess Asherah as his consort.[31][33] This pair made up the top tier of the Canaanite pantheon;[31] the second tier was made up of their children, the "seventy sons of Athirat" (a variant of the name Asherah).[34] Prominent in this group was Baal, who had his home on Mount Zaphon; over time Baal became the dominant Canaanite deity, so that El became the executive power and Baal the military power in the cosmos.[35] Baal's sphere was the thunderstorm with its life-giving rains, so that he was also a fertility god, although not quite the fertility god.[36] Below the seventy second-tier gods was a third tier made up of comparatively minor craftsman and trader deities, with a fourth and final tier of divine messengers and the like.[34] El and his sons made up the Assembly of the Gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of Deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes El dividing the nations of the world among his sons, with Yahweh receiving Israel:[32]

When the Most High (’elyn) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated humanity,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of divine beings.
For Yahweh's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.[Notes 3]

The Israelites initially worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.[37] In the period of the Judges and the first half of the monarchy, El and Yahweh became conflated in a process of religious syncretism.[38] As a result, ’el (Hebrew: אל‬) became a generic term meaning "god", as opposed to the name of a worshipped deity, and epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone, diminishing the worship of El and strengthening the position of Yahweh.[39] Features of Baal, El and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahweh religion, Asherah possibly becoming embodied in the feminine aspects of the Shekinah or divine presence, and Baal's nature as a storm and weather god becoming assimilated into Yahweh's own identification with the storm.[40] In the next stage the Yahweh religion separated itself from its Canaanite heritage, first by rejecting Baal-worship in the 9th century, then through the 8th to 6th centuries with prophetic condemnation of Baal, the asherim, sun-worship, worship on the "high places", practices pertaining to the dead, and other matters.[41]

In the earliest literature such as the Song of the Sea (Exodus 15:1–18, celebrating Yahweh's victory over Egypt at the exodus), Yahweh is a warrior for his people, a storm-god typical of ancient Near Eastern myths, marching out from a region to the south or south-east of Israel with the heavenly host of stars and planets that make up his army.[42] Israel's battles are Yahweh's battles, Israel's victories are his victories, and while other peoples have other gods, Israel's god is Yahweh, who will procure a fertile resting-place for them:[43]

There is none like God, O Jeshurun (i.e., Israel)
who rides through the heavens to your help ...
he subdues the ancient gods, shatters the forces of old ...
so Israel lives in safety, untroubled is Jacob's abode ...
Your enemies shall come fawning to you,
and you shall tread on their backs. (Deuteronomy 33:26–29)
As you can see here, according to the Bible itself in Deuteronomy, again it refers to there being many gods. With Yahweh receiving the Israelites as his own people, his inheritance. While other gods presumably get other groups of people as theirs. I always wondered how could the God of the universe have a special group of people that he likes above everyone else. It makes sense if he is just one of many gods and it also makes sense why he's so damn jealous all the time and constantly has to proclaim that he is the one and only god, above all else. He's insecure about the fact that he really isn't the only god and he really isn't above all else.

Regardless, the Christian religion, when actually adhering to Jesus's words, still seems to profess the correct message in my opinion. One that I agree with. Although I don't believe Jesus died for our sins. I think he died to send us a message from God. One about loving each other and seeking the truth. So he did sacrifice himself for us, not because we are inherently bad but because we have been lied to and misled. He died for truth and what better way to show real love than to sacrifice yourself for the sake of telling the truth to people. A truth that sets us free. He died so we could be free from the lies that hold us back as a species. Too bad over 2000 years later and people still don't get it, even though he knew most wouldn't. Notice how all the prominent figures in history who tell us to love each other end up getting killed? Funny how that works.

Sorry for the constant long walls of text. I've just had a lot thoughts about all of this and need to write them down. Take your time in responding to whatever you can. I know there's a lot to go through here.
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Unread 2018-05-07, 11:14 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by torqueburner View Post
Also, your idea about the old testament being a trick of Satan is a VERY interesting thought, to which I'll think about more in depth. It would be an excellent deception. Just had to throw that thought in real quick.
This is the passage that started me on the path of that line of thinking btw.

Quote:
John 8

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[a]”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[b] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
I don't think all of it is deception, but like any good lie, there has to be truth in it too. Some of that stuff is downright evil if you didn't look at it from a perspective of "Well God did it so it must be ok." Don't throw away your own morals and the morals that God supposedly has just because some book says whatever God does is justified. Look at it like this. God is supposed to be our father right? How would you look at his actions if he was your father or someone else's and you were looking at from an outside point of view? How can God be moral if he can't even stand up to scrutiny of a human? God should be the ultimate model and example of morality. Just like a good parent leads by example. That doesn't mean that there aren't consequences for evil behavior. Just like a good parent, discipline is a part of loving your children. But there is a line between discipline to correct behavior and outright abuse. Cursing generations of someone's children because they saw Noah drunk and naked seems a tad abusive for a loving father. Destroying an entire city because there isn't even 10 non-evil people there, that I can understand from God.

There's a lot of good stuff in the Old Testament too but some absolutely heinous acts are committed in the name of Yahweh. He even deceives people according to 1 Kings 22

Quote:
Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
So we know that Yahweh is not above deceiving people to fulfill his own purposes. Seems reasonable to assume there are other deceptions going on in the Old Testament that we aren't aware of to fulfill whatever other purpose that he might have.

Quote:
This is a little of topic, but I'm sure it Will play into this conversation later. Do you believe in creation through evolution or do you think it's more of a "super natural" event, or a little of both?
This is a tough one for me. I definitely believe that some sort of creator set everything in motion. I believe that science has figured out the process of it all. Evolution itself I am having some troubles with in regards to certain species and how they developed certain traits. I do not know nearly enough about it to claim it to not be true because it makes a lot of sense. I just don't understand how would wings form, how would creatures that go through metamorphosis form, how did humans become self aware the way we are, how did that all happen through small random mutations? Maybe someone can answer those questions perfectly and I am foolish for even asking them but it all seems too orderly for it to be random accidents of chance. A lot of ancient religions propose that there are certain era's of the earth and after each era, it starts all over again. The Bible supports this idea. The Dinosaurs could have been one such era. We are another. I don't know. I do believe in the current scientific view, I just think maybe it isn't the whole story. We keep finding evidence that pushes back our current understanding of when human civilization started so who knows what else we might discover in the future.
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Unread 2018-05-08, 11:38 AM   #9
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The God(s) plural term in the bible gets me to. From what I've heard and understand he could be saying this from a point that he's the father, the son, and the holy spirit. I've also heard that in ancient times it was common for kings and people of authority to use "us" as a term of what was called plural majesty. It's a term to speak about ones greatness. Of course in genesis 1 it says, "The Lord our God, The Lord is one", so idk. The ancient Gilgamesh flood story that matches Noah is very interesting, but there is stories of great floods all over the world in many different religions that have nothing to do with Christianity or each other. It also seems very plausible that the biblical account was preserved with written or oral tradition handed down from Noah to the patriarchs, which eventually came to Moses. If that was the case then it would actually make it older than the Sumerian account. Something to give serious consideration to. Also think about how it says The gods left the earth to be safe....what? Left to be safe. That doesn't sound like gods to me. There are a lot of inconsistency with the Gilgamesh story too. It says that the gods deceived each other. Again, what! How do Gods deceive each other? It says it rained for 7 days, where the bible says 40 days. 7 days is a short amount of time to rain that much. Where as the bible says "the fountains broke open from the deep" and It rained. Scientist know there is VAST amounts of water trapped in the earth. It also says the boat in the Gilgamesh account was more of a cubed shape that stood something like 6 or 7 stories high. That seems like it would sink immediately in rough seas. Gilgamesh story says a dove was released first and a raven last. The bible says a raven was released first. The importants of that is that ravens are scavengers and doves eat plants. So a raven would be able to find land scavenge for food and fly back. A dove would surely die before returning IF enough water hasn't drained away from land yet to expose pantry life. The bible says the continually release doves to check the status of land. I'm not saying there isn't any inconsistencies in the bible, but they match up so much better to scientific creation and scrutiny, imo. So I don't think it's unreasonable to question the Gilgamesh stories as very suspect. I think it's important to Also point out again that the Christian view of creation is the only one that could be accurate if indeed there's a God. And that's that he created everything including time itself Outside of time and space which is what current scientific theory is according to general relativity. That is that the "entity" that brought everything here was outside of space, time, matter.

Morality is the one that is a little confusing to me. I believe in objective moral law/behavior, not a subjective moral law. Other people can't grasp the concept of a moral "law" because it's not tangible, but very much exists. It's really no different than the law of gravity. We feel it's effects and know it's there, but we don't know why it's there or what it is. If God isn't the ultimate source of morality then how have we achieved a higher morality then him or morality at all? I mean, I think 99% of the world would agree it's wrong to kill for fun, or for simply trying to get ones point across. I believe that nature and natural "evolution" can't produce these types of things or feelings. That's not the job or even the ability of evolution to produce things like truths,feelings, love, beauty, art. These are things nature is incapable of producing. So I'm forced, almost, to believe God is ultimate truth, love, etc. Not just halfway or sometimes. Also, if I except he's all knowing, again, maybe we're the ones being naive and arrogant in thinking we know what's best for us. Take a look at our world currently. Left to our own devices and thoughts we royally screw everything up, each time throughout history, without fail. Why? Because we start to make false Gods, or treat ourselves as gods, or just throw God out the picture altogether. If God isn't ultimate truth and love then were can we get it from?
I think evolution needs to be rethought. I believe in microevolution, just not macro. I think adaptations is a better term to use them evolution. Most scientist agree now that the "tree of life" needs tweeked. It needs to be more like the bush or bushes of life. I'm pretty familiar with biology and astronomy and it doesn't take a genius to see something is terribly off with the current view of both.
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Unread 2018-05-08, 01:20 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by torqueburner View Post
The God(s) plural term in the bible gets me to. From what I've heard and understand he could be saying this from a point that he's the father, the son, and the holy spirit. I've also heard that in ancient times it was common for kings and people of authority to use "us" as a term of what was called plural majesty. It's a term to speak about ones greatness. Of course in genesis 1 it says, "The Lord our God, The Lord is one", so idk. The ancient Gilgamesh flood story that matches Noah is very interesting, but there is stories of great floods all over the world in many different religions that have nothing to do with Christianity or each other. It also seems very plausible that the biblical account was preserved with written or oral tradition handed down from Noah to the patriarchs, which eventually came to Moses. If that was the case then it would actually make it older than the Sumerian account. Something to give serious consideration to. Also think about how it says The gods left the earth to be safe....what? Left to be safe. That doesn't sound like gods to me. There are a lot of inconsistency with the Gilgamesh story too. It says that the gods deceived each other. Again, what! How do Gods deceive each other? It says it rained for 7 days, where the bible says 40 days. 7 days is a short amount of time to rain that much. Where as the bible says "the fountains broke open from the deep" and It rained. Scientist know there is VAST amounts of water trapped in the earth. It also says the boat in the Gilgamesh account was more of a cubed shape that stood something like 6 or 7 stories high. That seems like it would sink immediately in rough seas. Gilgamesh story says a dove was released first and a raven last. The bible says a raven was released first. The importants of that is that ravens are scavengers and doves eat plants. So a raven would be able to find land scavenge for food and fly back. A dove would surely die before returning IF enough water hasn't drained away from land yet to expose pantry life. The bible says the continually release doves to check the status of land. I'm not saying there isn't any inconsistencies in the bible, but they match up so much better to scientific creation and scrutiny, imo. So I don't think it's unreasonable to question the Gilgamesh stories as very suspect. I think it's important to Also point out again that the Christian view of creation is the only one that could be accurate if indeed there's a God. And that's that he created everything including time itself Outside of time and space which is what current scientific theory is according to general relativity. That is that the "entity" that brought everything here was outside of space, time, matter.
I did not point out the existence of the Sumerian Gods to claim they are the correct ones or that those are the more accurate stories. Just that there is a lot of similarities and that these layers of distortions and deceptions have been going on a very long time and no one source has all the answers as they all seem to borrow from each other. The Sumerian Gods reflected more human like qualities. They did horrible things to each other. They committed incest as well. They were more like the Greek gods in a sense and human like in some ways. Honestly, they sound like aliens to me. Or maybe the Nephilim from Genesis? Also, I'm pretty sure the dove is one of Inanna's symbol (along with the lion) so that's what that was about. Interesting too because when Jesus gets baptized, a dove comes down from the sky.

Another interesting story from Sumeria is that of Adapa

Quote:
Adapa was a mortal man from a godly lineage, a son of Ea (Enki in Sumerian), the god of wisdom and of the ancient city of Eridu, who brought the arts of civilization to that city (from Dilmun, according to some versions). He broke the wings of Ninlil the South Wind, who had overturned his fishing boat, and was called to account before Anu. Ea, his patron god, warned him to apologize humbly for his actions, but not to partake of food or drink while he was in heaven, as it would be the food of death. Anu, impressed by Adapa's sincerity, offered instead the food of immortality, but Adapa heeded Ea's advice, refused, and thus missed the chance for immortality that would have been his."[3]
You can see the similarities with Adam and Even story. Except in this story, man is basically punished for obeying his God, not disobeying him. It's kinda of interesting and tells you what the Sumerians thought of the gods. This story combined with a few Inanna and Enki stories, and you can see where each parts of the Adam and Eve story came from.

Quote:
The myth of "Inanna and the Huluppu Tree", found in the preamble to the epic of Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Netherworld (ETCSL 1.8.1.4),[101] centers around a young Inanna, not yet stable in her power.[102][103] It begins with a huluppu tree, which Kramer identifies as possibly a willow,[104] growing on the banks of the river Euphrates. Inanna moves the tree to her garden in Uruk with the intention to carve it into a throne once it is fully grown. The tree grows and matures, but the serpent "who knows no charm," the Anz-bird, and Lilitu, the Sumerian forerunner to the Lilith of Jewish folklore, all take up residence within the tree, causing Inanna to cry with sorrow.[104] The hero Gilgamesh, who, in this story, is portrayed as her brother, comes along and slays the serpent, causing the Anz-bird and Lilitu to flee.[105] Gilgamesh's companions chop down the tree and carve its wood into a bed and a throne, which they give to Inanna,[106] who fashions a pikku and a mikku (probably a drum and drumsticks respectively, although the exact identifications are uncertain),[107] which she gives to Gilgamesh as a reward for his heroism.[108]

The Sumerian hymn Inanna and Utu contains an etiological myth describing how Inanna became the goddess of sex.[109] At the beginning of the hymn, Inanna knows nothing of sex,[109] so she begs her brother Utu to take her to Kur (the Sumerian Underworld),[109] so that she may taste the fruit of a tree that grows there,[109] which will reveal to her all the secrets of sex.[109] Utu complies and, in Kur, Inanna tastes the fruit and becomes knowledgeable
In this story of Enki and Ninhursag, you can see the clear parallels to the Garden of Eden and at the end, a rib gets taken out of Enki and a goddess of life is created. The huge difference here is, at the end, Enki gets reunited with Mother Nature essentially. In the Adam and Eve story, God banishes them from the garden and mankind gets separated from nature and are made to work the ground and herd animals. It's also almost like a symbolic move, going to a male dominated society and abandoning the feminine. Women were just property to the Hebrews.

http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/myt...enkininhur.htm


Where in Genesis does it say God created from outside of space and time? It just says he created the heavens and the earth. Also, he says "Let there be light" and he separates day and night on the first day. He doesn't create the sun and moon until the 4th day. Not sure how that works.

Quote:
Morality is the one that is a little confusing to me. I believe in objective moral law/behavior, not a subjective moral law. Other people can't grasp the concept of a moral "law" because it's not tangible, but very much exists. It's really no different than the law of gravity. We feel it's effects and know it's there, but we don't know why it's there or what it is. If God isn't the ultimate source of morality then how have we achieved a higher morality then him or morality at all? I mean, I think 99% of the world would agree it's wrong to kill for fun, or for simply trying to get ones point across. I believe that nature and natural "evolution" can't produce these types of things or feelings. That's not the job or even the ability of evolution to produce things like truths,feelings, love, beauty, art. These are things nature is incapable of producing. So I'm forced, almost, to believe God is ultimate truth, love, etc. Not just halfway or sometimes. Also, if I except he's all knowing, again, maybe we're the ones being naive and arrogant in thinking we know what's best for us. Take a look at our world currently. Left to our own devices and thoughts we royally screw everything up, each time throughout history, without fail. Why? Because we start to make false Gods, or treat ourselves as gods, or just throw God out the picture altogether. If God isn't ultimate truth and love then were can we get it from?
I think evolution needs to be rethought. I believe in microevolution, just not macro. I think adaptations is a better term to use them evolution. Most scientist agree now that the "tree of life" needs tweeked. It needs to be more like the bush or bushes of life. I'm pretty familiar with biology and astronomy and it doesn't take a genius to see something is terribly off with the current view of both
I don't know but I've always had a strong sense of morality. Even if I don't always live up to it. I am far from perfect and have some ugly parts I am not proud of. But I acknowledge them and do not deny them. I think that part is important in judging things like morality and truth and knowing what love is. I am so aware of abuse tactics from learning about what happened in my own life, I can spot that shit easy. I know what healthy behaviors look like between people compared to dysfunctional and abusive behaviors. If you're causing pain to someone without meaningful growth, chances are, what you're doing is wrong. God is the ultimate source of morality imo if you take the idea that God is love and wisdom. My view of God not being moral or just just means that I don't think he directly interferes with this world. He interferes through this world through the love of human beings with each other and maybe through giving some signs. But just because a family member dies or you get cancer, doesn't mean that God isn't moral or just. God had nothing to do with that. That's just life on this Earth. I don't think we always know what is best for us but I know that it wouldn't be good for me if God commanded that another group of people came into my town to kill all the men, take the women for themselves and the children for slaves. Or bashed the babies on the rocks. I know it wouldn't be good for God to curse generations of my future children just because of something I did. Hardships are one thing but murder, rape, violence. That's not something that is ever good for anyone.
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Unread 2018-05-08, 06:52 PM   #11
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I certainly am reading this thread with interest, but have little to add at the moment. Kind of mulling what I have learned in the past vs. what I actually do believe in some matters. Neat discussion that I will be following and contribute to when I get some of my own thoughts together.
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Unread 2018-05-08, 07:54 PM   #12
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I certainly am reading this thread with interest, but have little to add at the moment. Kind of mulling what I have learned in the past vs. what I actually do believe in some matters. Neat discussion that I will be following and contribute to when I get some of my own thoughts together.
It does seem to be difficult to put these kinds of personally made concepts into words if you haven't purposefully made an effort to do so. I have sort of had all these personal codes and beliefs in my mind without really knowing exactly what they were by just spelling them out. Writing them out so other people can understand them does seem to help you even understand yourself in a way. I look forward to whatever you have to contribute with your own ideas about anything being discussed here or anything else you might need an outlet to express.
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Unread 2018-05-08, 10:30 PM   #13
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I just wanted share this song which has been resonating with me strongly since it came out. It can only be seen as describing (anti)Christianity in the Trump era by turning the Beatitudes on their head, replacing them with the 7 deadly sins. The things Trump represents.

Something went wrong. Please make sure you added the video correctly.

Video URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_y6n5pMA7U

Quote:
A Perfect Circle - The Doomed

Behold a new Christ
Behold the same old horde
Gather at the altar-ing
New beginning, new word
And the word was death
And the word was without light
The new beatitude:
"Good luck, you're on your own"

Blessed are the fornicates
May we bend down to be their whores
Blessed are the rich
May we labour, deliver them more
Blessed are the envious
Bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain
Blessed are the gluttonous
May they feast us to famine and war

What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful?
What of the meek, the mourning, and the merciful?
All doomed
All doomed

Behold a new Christ
Behold the same old horde
Gather at the altar-ing
New beginning, new word
And the word was death
And the word was without light
The new beatitude:
"Good luck..."

What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful?
What of the meek, the mourning, and the merciful?
What of the righteous?
What of the charitable?
What of the truthful, the dutiful, the decent?

Doomed are the poor
Doomed are the peaceful
Doomed are the meek
Doomed are the merciful
For the word is now death
And the word is now without light
The new beatitude:
"Fuck the doomed, you're on your own"
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Unread 2018-05-08, 10:34 PM   #14
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Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply you thought it was the right religion. I just start to ramble sometimes, and I think about stuff faster than I can type it. I'm going to agree with you 100% on the similarities of the religions and that they could just be layering on top of each other. I guess what I'm getting at is that even though they have similar layers I feel like at the end of the day there is in fact just one God and one "true" religion, whatever that may be.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Read the Hebrew word for heavens and it's meanings when they use it with the word "the" before it. They use it 9 times in the old testament, meaning the totality of the entire "universe".There was no word for universe in the Hebrew language. It shows the word "heavens" is used in the manner of the whole universe for that particular verse. So he created everything simultaneous which logic would follow that that includes time. It says in the bible, "the grace of Gods effects we experience was put into place before the beginning of time". There's several verses that clearly talk about "before time", it's really crazy stuff. This is the only religion that seems to understand, or at least, convey there was no "time" before creation. He's the only transcendent God, and being transcendent would be an absolute requirement. I know of know other religion (and there might be) that there God transcends from space-time. Yet the bible makes this very clear that he's transcendent.
When I have a little extra time I want to explain the 6 days of creation from a scientific standpoint to illustrate how well it lines up with the current scientific view of creation. It will be a fairly long one because there's a lot of info to take in, so I'll come back to it.
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Unread 2018-05-08, 11:44 PM   #15
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Sorry. I wasn't trying to imply you thought it was the right religion. I just start to ramble sometimes, and I think about stuff faster than I can type it. I'm going to agree with you 100% on the similarities of the religions and that they could just be layering on top of each other. I guess what I'm getting at is that even though they have similar layers I feel like at the end of the day there is in fact just one God and one "true" religion, whatever that may be.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Read the Hebrew word for heavens and it's meanings when they use it with the word "the" before it. They use it 9 times in the old testament, meaning the totality of the entire "universe".There was no word for universe in the Hebrew language. It shows the word "heavens" is used in the manner of the whole universe for that particular verse. So he created everything simultaneous which logic would follow that that includes time. It says in the bible, "the grace of Gods effects we experience was put into place before the beginning of time". There's several verses that clearly talk about "before time", it's really crazy stuff. This is the only religion that seems to understand, or at least, convey there was no "time" before creation. He's the only transcendent God, and being transcendent would be an absolute requirement. I know of know other religion (and there might be) that there God transcends from space-time. Yet the bible makes this very clear that he's transcendent.
When I have a little extra time I want to explain the 6 days of creation from a scientific standpoint to illustrate how well it lines up with the current scientific view of creation. It will be a fairly long one because there's a lot of info to take in, so I'll come back to it.
I think the only true "religion" is faith in a higher power. Faith that no matter what happens, everything will be ok in the end, even if you die. Faith in a higher power produces faith in love. Faith gives you hope. Hope is belief and belief is probably the most powerful thing on this planet. This higher power, in my opinion, being a life force of infinite love and truth that has the power to connect and transform us all. All of this Jesus spoke about. We are all children of God capable of having the Holy Spirit inhabit us. And Jesus spoke about prayer and faith like it was "The Secret". You just had to believe it and your faith could move mountains.

Quote:
Mark 11:23-24 ESV
Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Mark 9:23 ESV
And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”

Matthew 21:22 ESV
And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

James 1:6-8 ESV
But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Matthew 18:19 ESV
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
Peter was even able to walk on water like Jesus because he believed. As soon as he doubted, he started to sink and Jesus points out his lack of faith in that moment.

Quote:
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a ghost; and they cried out for fear. 27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. 28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee upon the waters. 29 And he said, Come. And Peter went down from the boat, and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, Lord, save me. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and took hold of him, and saith unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
I honestly don't think the "one true religion" should be anymore complicated than that. Believe in God, stand for truth, and stand against evil and lies. Love one another. Love also means doing what's best for a person and trying to turn them away from evil by being a testament to love, faith, hope and truth. I can't really think of a more noble existence that basically anyone could adhere to than upholding these basic principals. No creation story needed, no dogma, no blood sacrifices, no worshiping. Worshiping would simply be acknowledging your blessings in life and being truly grateful for them. An all loving, all knowing God doesn't need to be worshiped. But he needs to be acknowledged lest you forget he's there and gratitude keeps you humble.

The transcendence, Hebrew/universe and being before time stuff is very interesting. With how prominent this particular Book is, there has to be some major truths in it in one way or another, or else it would have been replaced a long time ago. A transcendent God is definitely in line with what I conceive God to be. Which is why I don't propose that he is responsible for immorality or suffering on Earth. And I only keep using "he" because it's the most familiar pronoun to use. I don't think God has a gender or even a body at all.

I'm not sure but I may be heard about this 6 day creation theory relating it to each day being a certain amount of time? Either way, I'd like to check it out. Sounds interesting.
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Unread 2018-05-09, 11:43 AM   #16
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Wow, that was a pretty powerful comment in the first paragraph! I couldn't agree more. We can debate semantics all day long about the bible, but I think you've nailed it pretty spot on. It's ok for people to have doubt in the bible, but they should never have doubt of the word of Jesus and what he can give you. I see semantics (to a certain point) as useless as long as people understand the significance of Jesus himself and his word. It doesn't matter if you believe stories of the bible as long as you live life "righteously" according to HIS word. Love each other unconditionally, and believe what he has waiting for you after this life. These thoughts seem so universal and obvious. I'm not saying you're 100% on board with the same Jesus as mine, but it seems pretty damn close that's why I'm saying It the way I am. Who did Jesus rail against the most in the bible? The churches. It's up to us as individuals to search our hearts and find this love. When I think of a world without God it really makes me sad because people are busy ripping of this religious motif to stay happy because if they take the world as strictly naturalistic and throw a creator out, you know what we're left with? Mindless products of unguided natural processes. Why would you believe anything of the human mind if that's the case. As Richard Dawkins says (who's a well respected atheist in the scientific community) " there is no evil, no good, no design, no purpose, Nothing but pitiless indifference". That's the actual world non-believers are living in. They'll say no it's not, but again, that's because they borrow from religious lifestyles and views without knowing it, or really giving thought to it. I feel like God wants us to know this so he can have a personal relationship with us.

Science is great, and I love it, but it's dangerous to our egos. Materialists will say science is the only way to know truth, but science can't prove that. It's self refuting, and there's no way to prove it because that requires and assumes logic for it to work. Plus the bible made scientific predictions before science, we just didn't understand yet, and in some cases didn't want to see the evidence from the bible such as, Jeremiah 33:25, Romans 8:20-22, Job 9:8. All scientifically verified and accurate today. It's funny when I say Jesus was resurrected and others say that's scientifically impossible (I guess they forgot what/who Jesus is) but the point I want to make is that, they have no problem with believing from a scientific point of view that the first living cell came from NON-LIVING "material", to LIVING material. So let me get this straight. You (not you) believe the universe can create life from "dead material", but an all powerful God that created the universe can't make living matter die, and then come back to life? I know we share a different view about the resurrection, but I feel it's a valid point if we take into consideration a God.
It just makes me cringe when atheist have a blatant disrespect for religion and this need to try and make believers look stupid or feel stupid. I get it. There are a lot of "conservative" believers who probably deserve it, but why this hard push back if they truly believe in atheisim. To me, it seems deeper than that with some. It seems like they have this fear of the unknown so badly, they push back and away as hard as they can all while forgetting about all these universal truths we talk about. It seems atheist don't realize how much of a religious stance they take in the world. They make truth claims about what is good and bad, but have NO ground to base what is, in fact, good or bad, or truth. If there is no God then good, bad, and truth can be thrown out the window. All that is a figment of our imagination. And I feel it's our duty to point this out IF the opportunity presents itself. I don't believe everyone will be "saved". I believe God will give you to your earthly possessions if that's what you want. He will not force you to love him or except him. That defeats the whole purpose of free will. So sometimes it takes us to help people see there is something out there greater than yourself and a love that's indescribable. It's almost the same way you experience love for your child. You NEVER have felt a love like the love for your children prior to having kids. Same thing with God. You'll never know or understand this love people speak of until you except him whole heartily. So when a parent who's a non believer says, I've never felt this feeling you speak of. I'd say you never felt "this" love for your child prior to having them either. Didn't mean it's not there.

I posted this because it was the shorter line of thoughts I have at the moment. Like you, I too have so many thoughts and comments racing around my head daily, that I carry a small notepad everywhere I go to write them down when they come to me.
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Unread 2018-05-09, 02:30 PM   #17
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Your post about Peter walking on water I think ties in to my point about Job. When Peter fell in the water he began to panic, and as you pointed out, he lost faith right in front of Jesus! For a perfect all loving being that might seem a little petty to do something like that and perhaps a little mean, because I'm sure Peter was scared to death being dropped in a rough stormy ocean. The point from jesus is to walk WITH him in faith, not for him. He could just as easily made Peter believe with the "snap of a finger" or kept him on top of the water but that would interfere with free will. Sometimes we have to go through hardships to get the point to sink in. It's kinda like the old saying, you can show a horse to the water but you can't make him drink it. C.S. Lewis put it perfectly. "God whispers to us in are pleasures, speaks to us in our consciences, but shouts to us in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world". People grow through, and better understand things when they are given hardships. Most people treat there children the same way. If you give a child everything and set no boundaries they become spoiled and greedy and they won't listen to anything you say, but if you discipline them from time to time your chances of them listening to you and understanding what your trying to show them, or tell them is greatly increased. Just a thought I had about the two being metaphorically similar.
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Unread 2018-05-09, 06:50 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by torqueburner View Post
Wow, that was a pretty powerful comment in the first paragraph! I couldn't agree more. We can debate semantics all day long about the bible, but I think you've nailed it pretty spot on. It's ok for people to have doubt in the bible, but they should never have doubt of the word of Jesus and what he can give you. I see semantics (to a certain point) as useless as long as people understand the significance of Jesus himself and his word. It doesn't matter if you believe stories of the bible as long as you live life "righteously" according to HIS word. Love each other unconditionally, and believe what he has waiting for you after this life. These thoughts seem so universal and obvious. I'm not saying you're 100% on board with the same Jesus as mine, but it seems pretty damn close that's why I'm saying It the way I am. Who did Jesus rail against the most in the bible? The churches. It's up to us as individuals to search our hearts and find this love. When I think of a world without God it really makes me sad because people are busy ripping of this religious motif to stay happy because if they take the world as strictly naturalistic and throw a creator out, you know what we're left with? Mindless products of unguided natural processes. Why would you believe anything of the human mind if that's the case. As Richard Dawkins says (who's a well respected atheist in the scientific community) " there is no evil, no good, no design, no purpose, Nothing but pitiless indifference". That's the actual world non-believers are living in. They'll say no it's not, but again, that's because they borrow from religious lifestyles and views without knowing it, or really giving thought to it. I feel like God wants us to know this so he can have a personal relationship with us.

I believe God will give you to your earthly possessions if that's what you want. He will not force you to love him or except him. That defeats the whole purpose of free will. So sometimes it takes us to help people see there is something out there greater than yourself and a love that's indescribable. It's almost the same way you experience love for your child. You NEVER have felt a love like the love for your children prior to having kids. Same thing with God. You'll never know or understand this love people speak of until you except him whole heartily. So when a parent who's a non believer says, I've never felt this feeling you speak of. I'd say you never felt "this" love for your child prior to having them either. Didn't mean it's not there.

I posted this because it was the shorter line of thoughts I have at the moment. Like you, I too have so many thoughts and comments racing around my head daily, that I carry a small notepad everywhere I go to write them down when they come to me.

I hope that's a basic philosophy and interpretation of Jesus's message that the vast majority can agree upon. And if someone disagree's, I would assume it would be due to the lack of something, not a problem with what I already spelled out. Seems like a pretty universal code to me, boiled down to the raw necessities without any unneeded fat. I think most people believe in the same things. It's just covered up and distorted with dogma and bullshit that doesn't truly matter. Some of that stuff can turn your heart hard and give you into hatred though. I've always just believed in trying to be a good person, probably because I was projecting my desire to get treated that way in my home. And probably because I know that real love has never made it's home inside of me so I do my best not to give into hatred or selfish behaviors. I despise those dark parts of myself so I despise them in others. I always keep an awareness of them though, so I can stay vigilant with myself and so I can see clearly the darkness in other people. I think there's real power in understanding every dark ugly part of yourself in an attempt to control it and admit fault to others when it appears. Also being able to see those things in other people quickly allows you to protect yourself and people you care about.

This basic idea I've laid out, boiled down from the teachings of Jesus, seems so simple yet we as humans can't just apply it and unite. We are far too gone down the rabbit hole to be able to fix ourselves now. I'm just as guilty as anyone else of causing division because I'd rather be an arrogant asshole sometimes and be right rather than speak truth with love. I know this is going to sound arrogant and maybe a bit crazy, but I'm starting to see that what my dad did to me (and what his own father did to him) was pure evil. I have figured out over the past few months that I most likely have Asperger's, which makes everything, especially my childhood, make so much more sense. This, combined with the narcissistic traits I developed to survive my childhood, also explains my strong desire to always look for the truth in things and never allow myself to be deluded. This truth telling/seeking aspect of myself, is what made my father single me out for the scapegoat role. I was shining a light on his ugliness so I become his mortal enemy, quite literally. He was terrified of being exposed as a complete fraud. The extent of this fraud of which I have only learned just over the past few days. He attacked me on just about every front in an effort to snuff out my light of truth so he wouldn't be exposed. The result of this attack, I don't even think I can fully comprehend. Self doubt, self hate, inability to accept love, being severed from God.

That light became discredited to my family and to myself, in fear that I would be able to shine that light and expose bigger hidden things out in the world. If that isn't just pure evil from Satan himself, I don't know what is. Severing a child's relationship with their father, who they learned about God from, all in an effort to keep a light of truth from growing up and shining brighter. This is the basic foundational way that the great deception ruins humanity, spreading hatred from parent to child. That evil, abusive behavior has been passed down in my family for who knows how long. Could be 1000 years. My parents do not even comprehend that they don't know what real love is. Yet I as a child, knew what it was and that I wasn't getting it and I refused to compromise in order to get a fake version of it. If you associate love with pain or fear, you have been lied to. Love does not cause pain and loving out of fear is not real love. I grew up in a supposedly Christian household and never one time was I taught what Jesus and the New Testament said about love. Love is the most important commandment and it is even greater than faith. This to me, is the most important passage of the Bible. Something every person should try their best to live up to.

Quote:
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[b] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.8 Love never ends.
I didn't use to believe in evil, like as a pure concept. I just thought of people as the sum total of their biology, experiences and choices. Which is mostly true. But I went on a serial killer documentary kick and started wondering why so many of these people were very similar in the way they act and deceive, the fakeness of their personalities. Undoubtedly, they had surpassed any normal human level or ability to make good choices based on morality. At that point, they had given up everything good inside of them and given into the hate so completely, that there was never any going back. They became the embodiment of evil. They were purely driven by a deep desire to hurt others and that was the only way they could relieve their own pain and get pleasure. There is nothing good left in these people. Any act of good is part of their deception. They are agents of destruction, bottomless pits never being satisfied. They spread lies and they cause fear and distrust of your fellow man after you encounter their abuses. Fear and self doubt are poisons of the human mind. A virus that can infect every aspect of your operating system and essentially cause it to shut down. It is the enemy of faith, hope and love.

Quote:
Science is great, and I love it, but it's dangerous to our egos. Materialists will say science is the only way to know truth, but science can't prove that. It's self refuting, and there's no way to prove it because that requires and assumes logic for it to work. Plus the bible made scientific predictions before science, we just didn't understand yet, and in some cases didn't want to see the evidence from the bible such as, Jeremiah 33:25, Romans 8:20-22, Job 9:8. All scientifically verified and accurate today.
I don't believe everyone will be "saved".
I think science and God can coexist. Even God had to create the Earth according to certain laws. This reality is basically a computer code and God is the master computer programmer. Science should always assume there is more to learn though, even about things we think we already have all the answers to. I also think it's silly to think that the simple nature of experimentation and observation can tell us everything we can learn about the universe. It can tell a whole lot, but we can't assume that what it can't tell us, doesn't exist by default. I know there is more going on in this world than what you can interpret with your 5 known senses. Things science can't measure. I think there is deception to keep that stuff hidden from us too. I have had multiple psychic experiences with people. These are things I immediately call bullshit on when I hear about them and was in denial about to myself for a long time. Until I had someone tell me what I was thinking out of the blue and I sort of flipped out and denied it and they apologized because they thought they felt our thoughts click. I had indeed felt the same thing but had never acknowledged just exactly what that was when it would happen to me.

I started consciously recognizing those moments more and more and was even able to call out someone else's thoughts before they said them just to prove to myself that this was a real thing and not just in my mind. I'm sure we've all had those moments and just dismissed them as coincidences. I really don't think they are. Those times a random thought will pop in your head and then someone around you says it. Or you all of a sudden think about someone you haven't seen in a long time and they text or call. I think there is something real to these experiences, something we have been blinded to from the time we are born. I wonder what the potential of such experiences could be if these experiences weren't explained away as coincidences and we were encouraged to nurture this part of us instead of deny it. There is a real reason why the phrases "Follow your heart" and "Listen to your gut" exist. We have intuitive abilities that most of us are not in tune with.


Quote:
It's funny when I say Jesus was resurrected and others say that's scientifically impossible (I guess they forgot what/who Jesus is) but the point I want to make is that, they have no problem with believing from a scientific point of view that the first living cell came from NON-LIVING "material", to LIVING material. So let me get this straight. You (not you) believe the universe can create life from "dead material", but an all powerful God that created the universe can't make living matter die, and then come back to life? I know we share a different view about the resurrection, but I feel it's a valid point if we take into consideration a God.
These are a tad different situations. Rebuilding rotting flesh at a molecular level and repairing it all to the point of it being habitable for a soul, as opposed to some sort of primordial spark of life. I think even God has to adhere to the laws of the world he created. He can probably bend them but breaking them would probably cause the whole thing to collapse and unravel. You can be the best computer programmer in the world but you still have to work within the frame work of the program you created. That being said, I don't find the Resurrection that far fetched of an idea for someone of Jesus's supposed stature. I just don't understand the importance of it. Maybe you can shine some light on that for me. Why was it so important that he be Resurrected in the flesh and such a huge emphasis be put on that to the point where Jesus has someone touch his hand to ensure that he isn't a ghost but actually a body? In my opinion, it's either symbolism for being reborn again in Christ, sacrificing your ego-self to "give up your life in order to save it". Or it's the way that Christianity collectively deals with the "stumbling block" Paul talked about. Having your Messiah be publicly humiliated and killed doesn't really inspire one to follow in his footsteps. The way they repeatedly emphasize his Resurrection kind of says to me that it's an overcompensation due to insecurity about his Crucifixion. And he supposedly walked the Earth for another 40 years or something right? Where are those books in the Bible?

Quote:
It just makes me cringe when atheist have a blatant disrespect for religion and this need to try and make believers look stupid or feel stupid. I get it. There are a lot of "conservative" believers who probably deserve it, but why this hard push back if they truly believe in atheisim. To me, it seems deeper than that with some. It seems like they have this fear of the unknown so badly, they push back and away as hard as they can all while forgetting about all these universal truths we talk about. It seems atheist don't realize how much of a religious stance they take in the world. They make truth claims about what is good and bad, but have NO ground to base what is, in fact, good or bad, or truth. If there is no God then good, bad, and truth can be thrown out the window. All that is a figment of our imagination. And I feel it's our duty to point this out IF the opportunity presents itself.
Most of these Atheists are just edgy teenagers aren't they? I've found that almost everyone finds these types of Atheists annoying. I completely understand the feeling though. I went through an Atheist stage after I stopped believing in whatever idea of God I got from my parents. It's rough, thinking everything you just took for granted before was always just a lie. You get angry at the fact that this "lie" exists and want to save other people from the same feelings you had when you stopped believing. And you just feel superior because you think everyone else is fooled. It's a perfect recipe for arrogant displays of douchebaggery. Luckily, I think most of them grow out of that angry phase and stop associating religion with that loss of faith painful feeling.
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Unread 2018-05-09, 07:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by torqueburner View Post
Your post about Peter walking on water I think ties in to my point about Job. When Peter fell in the water he began to panic, and as you pointed out, he lost faith right in front of Jesus! For a perfect all loving being that might seem a little petty to do something like that and perhaps a little mean, because I'm sure Peter was scared to death being dropped in a rough stormy ocean. The point from jesus is to walk WITH him in faith, not for him. He could just as easily made Peter believe with the "snap of a finger" or kept him on top of the water but that would interfere with free will. Sometimes we have to go through hardships to get the point to sink in. It's kinda like the old saying, you can show a horse to the water but you can't make him drink it. C.S. Lewis put it perfectly. "God whispers to us in are pleasures, speaks to us in our consciences, but shouts to us in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world". People grow through, and better understand things when they are given hardships. Most people treat there children the same way. If you give a child everything and set no boundaries they become spoiled and greedy and they won't listen to anything you say, but if you discipline them from time to time your chances of them listening to you and understanding what your trying to show them, or tell them is greatly increased. Just a thought I had about the two being metaphorically similar.
Really? Cause I see those 2 situations as complete opposites. In fact, these are both perfect examples of the huge difference between Yahweh and Jesus. One being devoid of love and prevalent in horrible abuse, the other full of love and loving discipline only in the sense of letting someone fail so they can see the errors of their ways.

Let's look at this as Jesus being a father and the disciples on the ship being his children.

Quote:
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a ghost; and they cried out for fear. 27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
Jesus sees that his kids are genuinely scared so he immediately lets them know it is him to comfort them. A very loving thing to do.

Quote:
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee upon the waters. 29 And he said, Come. And Peter went down from the boat, and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus.
Peter is embarking on a mission of faith, and in asking Jesus's permission, Peter gains the confidence to believe that he can walk on the water just like Jesus. This is like a father encouraging his son to do something difficult, while leading by example. The son asks the father if he can do it and the father tells him yes. That lets the child know that the father believes in him and that gives the child the courage and the belief in himself that he can do it.

Quote:
30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, Lord, save me. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and took hold of him, and saith unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
Just like most children, they stumble and doubt themselves during difficult tasks in childhood. The child cries and wants their parent. Jesus IMMEDIATELY stretches out his hand to pick his child up and holds him. He then teaches him the lesson of why he stumbled, he doubted himself. There is nothing but an encouraging, comforting, loving father teaching their child a lesson here. There is no shaming, no abuse, no punishment without any sort of crime, no point making for the sake of Jesus's glory, no ego whatsoever from Jesus. Just a father encouraging his son in the undertaking of a difficult task after his son asked for permission to do that task, then letting him fail on his own, comforting him after and teaching him why he failed. This is love.

People (not saying you do this) make the mistake with extremes when they think of love and discipline for children. They think you are either an authoritarian, and are all about punishment with no love. Or you are too permissive, with no discipline but with "too much love". These parenting styles are represented by 4 basic types.

Quote:
Authoritarian Parenting[/SIZE]

Authoritarian parents are often thought of as disciplinarians.

They use a strict discipline style with little negotiation possible. Punishment is common.
Communication is mostly one way: from parent to child. Rules usually are not explained.
Parents with this style are typically less nurturing.
Expectations are high with limited flexibility.


Permissive Parenting

Permissive or Indulgent parents mostly let their children do what they want, and offer limited guidance or direction.

They are more like friends than parents.
Their discipline style is the opposite of strict. They have limited or no rules and mostly let children figure problems out on their own.
Communication is open but these parents let children decide for themselves rather than giving direction.
Parents in this category tend to be warm and nurturing.
Expectations are typically minimal or not set by these parents.


Uninvolved Parenting

Uninvolved parents give children a lot of freedom and generally stay out of their way. Some parents may make a conscious decision to parent in this way, while others are less interested in parenting or unsure of what to do.

No particular discipline style is utilized. An uninvolved parent lets a child mostly do what he wants, probably out of a lack of information or caring.
Communication is limited.
This group of parents offers little nurturing.
There are few or no expectations of children.


Authoritative Parenting

Authoritative parents are reasonable and nurturing, and set high, clear expectations. Children with parents who demonstrate this style tend to be self-disciplined and think for themselves. This style is thought to be most beneficial to children.

Disciplinary rules are clear and the reasons behind them are explained.
Communication is frequent and appropriate to the child’s level of understanding.
Authoritative parents are nurturing.
Expectations and goals are high but stated clearly. Children may have input into goals.
As you can see, Yahweh is an Authoritarian and Jesus falls more in line with an Authoritative style. It's no secret which children under which style will grow up to be the best version of themselves. Love is doing what is the best thing possible for that person, no matter how hard it is for either of you. Keeping your child from the difficulties of life is not love, it's selfishness. Parents who do that, do not do it for their children because they "love them too much" like they claim they do. They do it for themselves because they are either scared their child will someday grow up and leave them, or they are too weak themselves to watch their child go through a difficult problem and support them in the process. That is not love.
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Unread 2018-05-11, 03:10 PM   #20
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We all have ugly parts of ourselves we don't like to acknowledge, but we ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I try very hard not to judge others and always remember what Matthew said in the bible, "why do you see the speck in your brothers eye, but fail to see the log in your own eye". That's why I think the power of prayer is so important, and it helps tremendously with these faults we have. It's like therapy, only 50x's better. This is why I also think God is a personal God, and not just some God that only cared about creating a universe, and not us.

Evil is a very real thing. This is why it drives me up the wall when people claim morals are subjective, but they'll certainly make objective claims about bad/good themselves and hold them as such, but if confronted they can always hide behind "subjective". If it's subjective than evil, good, bad, doesn't exist. If evil doesn't exist then Satan doesn't exist, and if Satan doesn't exist then neither does a God. Satan is chipping away at everyone day by day, and most are to blind to notice. He attacks the most vulnerable part of us, and that's our mind. The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he doesn't exist. This trickery and corruption of the mind is what started atheism in its most mild form and moved it into this "radical" aethist movement we see from the scientific community. That's why I think the antichrist will be a scientist. Most people don't even question what science tells them on any given matter, they just except it as fact. Satan will use the very thing God gave us, and made us with (mind/body) to fool us, in the same way Newton said the law of gravity is proof of a creator and then Stephen Hawkings came along and said the law of gravity is proof you don't need a creator. We do things all the time that we feel bad about internally and aren't quite sure why, and yet we keep doing it, and in some cases never correcting it.That's not "nature" talking to to you. That's God. That's how you know he's personal. If you kill a person on accident, 99% of the sane world would probably feel some type of regret or sadness. You think nature provided that as a "survival skill" for you? (Not you)

Do you believe evil people will go to a "hell"? Do you think people need "saved", as in helping them believe in a creator, and do you believe arrogant atheist will go to this "hell", and "good" atheist will go to a "heaven"? If you don't want to answer any of these questions I understand because these questions are kind of the "meat" of the conversation, and it might offend people, even though that's not the intention of the questions.

God created the universe with laws that we can understand, but he can and did create any law he wants. He dictates the laws and how he wants them to function. That's why I see miracles as anomalies in the physical laws of nature. Just like a computer glitch, God can cease these physical laws or modify them from time to time. They wouldn't be miracles if it happened on a regular basis. We have no idea how it could have happen (the resurrection) from a scientific view,but then again we have no idea what gravity is or why it's there and perhaps never will. We've never seen an electron. We don't even know what it is. We have no clue why the most precise order that's EVER been seen started immediately after the biggest explosion ever. (The big bang) The universe is so finely tuned scientist are still at lost to give even a half decent proposal as to how this is possible without direction or purposeful design. I love the God of the gaps argument to. There is no gap! Whatever new discoveries that are being made is because he allowed us to understand it. It was never a gap, as in, God did it without physical laws of nature to explain them. There's lots of things that is beyond scientific testing. It's funny you mention thinking about something and then it happens. 2 weeks ago I was talking with my wife about a friend we haven't seen or heard from in over a year, and two days later he pops up out of the blue, saying how he was thinking about us and just wanted to stop by real quick and say hi.

Yes. Most of the mouthy ones are teenagers, but you have a fair amount of young adults out there that haven't outgrown it, and a decent movement started particularly in Europe. It's also becoming a huge problem in college. If you want to pass certain classes or be hired on as a professor, you'd better keep your mouth shut about certain religious views. I don't condone teaching "creation" in schools at all, but for college's to be pushing this dogma that a creator doesn't exist and science is all you need to understand the world isn't exactly true.
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Unread 2018-05-11, 08:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by torqueburner View Post
We all have ugly parts of ourselves we don't like to acknowledge, but we ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I try very hard not to judge others and always remember what Matthew said in the bible, "why do you see the speck in your brothers eye, but fail to see the log in your own eye". That's why I think the power of prayer is so important, and it helps tremendously with these faults we have. It's like therapy, only 50x's better. This is why I also think God is a personal God, and not just some God that only cared about creating a universe, and not us.

Evil is a very real thing. This is why it drives me up the wall when people claim morals are subjective, but they'll certainly make objective claims about bad/good themselves and hold them as such, but if confronted they can always hide behind "subjective". If it's subjective than evil, good, bad, doesn't exist. If evil doesn't exist then Satan doesn't exist, and if Satan doesn't exist then neither does a God. Satan is chipping away at everyone day by day, and most are to blind to notice. He attacks the most vulnerable part of us, and that's our mind. The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he doesn't exist. This trickery and corruption of the mind is what started atheism in its most mild form and moved it into this "radical" aethist movement we see from the scientific community. That's why I think the antichrist will be a scientist. Most people don't even question what science tells them on any given matter, they just except it as fact. Satan will use the very thing God gave us, and made us with (mind/body) to fool us, in the same way Newton said the law of gravity is proof of a creator and then Stephen Hawkings came along and said the law of gravity is proof you don't need a creator. We do things all the time that we feel bad about internally and aren't quite sure why, and yet we keep doing it, and in some cases never correcting it.That's not "nature" talking to to you. That's God. That's how you know he's personal. If you kill a person on accident, 99% of the sane world would probably feel some type of regret or sadness. You think nature provided that as a "survival skill" for you? (Not you)


God created the universe with laws that we can understand, but he can and did create any law he wants. He dictates the laws and how he wants them to function. That's why I see miracles as anomalies in the physical laws of nature. Just like a computer glitch, God can cease these physical laws or modify them from time to time. They wouldn't be miracles if it happened on a regular basis. We have no idea how it could have happen (the resurrection) from a scientific view,but then again we have no idea what gravity is or why it's there and perhaps never will. We've never seen an electron. We don't even know what it is. We have no clue why the most precise order that's EVER been seen started immediately after the biggest explosion ever. (The big bang) The universe is so finely tuned scientist are still at lost to give even a half decent proposal as to how this is possible without direction or purposeful design. I love the God of the gaps argument to. There is no gap! Whatever new discoveries that are being made is because he allowed us to understand it. It was never a gap, as in, God did it without physical laws of nature to explain them. There's lots of things that is beyond scientific testing.
I feel like at the very least, people have to acknowledge that some things people do are evil or that certain movements are evil. We should all agree that the Nazi movement and the Holocaust were evil. Serial killers are evil. The act of Catholic priests molesting children and just being shuffled around is evil. These are acts that are completely devoid of any good results or reasonable explanations and do nothing but take and destroy lives. There's no grey area here.

People judge themselves on their intent and others by the consequences of their actions. I'm not sure if Satan as an entity exists or if man's nature is really just that evil by itself that we're always fighting against it. The way I look at is this. Take a child and never discipline him, never tell him what to do, just let him do whatever it is he wants and see how he is by the time he's 18. This would be the perfect representative of humanities pure nature. I'm sure that child wouldn't hit 8 years old before you saw what a terrible monster they were forming into. Is that the work of some demon named Satan or is that just the very nature of human beings? I don't know and I'm not sure it really matters what you call it to be honest. If this is Satan's world, like the Bible says, then it's just semantics at this point.

What does make sense to me, is that in order to turn that child into something good, some outside force has to teach him why he should behave in a way that goes against his very nature from the time he is born, ie his parents. Now the real question is, who or what did this to the first humans? Who taught them to go against their very nature in order that they don't turn into this hypothetical 8 year old monster? Unless this whole scenario I'm talking about is just nonsense, I'd have to think some sort of higher being showed them a different way. Atheists can say all they want that you don't need to believe in God to have morals and I completely agree, in modern times, yes. But what about 5000 years ago? Who would have ever come up with the concepts of morals if the idea of God never existed? And why would anyone have listened if they didn't come from a higher being than man himself? I, just like anyone else, would tell that person to fuck right off trying to tell me how to behave. If it's coming from a higher source than man, you are more likely to want to listen. Especially if you believe there are consequences for not listening.

I think science is useful and undoubtedly help us explain things in the universe but we shouldn't let it make us arrogantly assume we can learn everything or have learned everything. We haven't and we probably never will. That should be the mindset of every scientist but with the yearning to keep learning and staying humble in the process.

Yes, I think Satan uses our own arrogance to fool us the most. Pride and arrogance are the easiest tools he has against us. The height of arrogance and pride is thinking we have things figured out and we have control because of that. That humans can do everything ourselves and everything be fine. We can continue to pollute and destroy our planet in the name of greed and the Earth will be fine. We've figured out x,y and z so we know all the consequences of those actions and we have nothing to worry about. Pride and arrogance blind us and they are self imposed blinders so we are essentially giving him permission to deceive us. I think everyone who gets lied to or deceived has in a way, allowed that to happen to themselves.

Quote:
Do you believe evil people will go to a "hell"? Do you think people need "saved", as in helping them believe in a creator, and do you believe arrogant atheist will go to this "hell", and "good" atheist will go to a "heaven"? If you don't want to answer any of these questions I understand because these questions are kind of the "meat" of the conversation, and it might offend people, even though that's not the intention of the questions.
I'd love to answer these questions. The problem is, I don't have concrete answers, only a few theories which a few might make me sound a bit off my rocker but fuck it. What part of existence isn't crazy in and of itself? Since these will be long explanations, I'll get to them in another post which I will try and get to sometime tonight.

Quote:
It's funny you mention thinking about something and then it happens. 2 weeks ago I was talking with my wife about a friend we haven't seen or heard from in over a year, and two days later he pops up out of the blue, saying how he was thinking about us and just wanted to stop by real quick and say hi.
See, we ALL experience things like this but are conditioned to just brush them off as coincidences. Sometimes yes, that may be what they are but we all have experienced some that go beyond that explanation and your example is PERFECT to illustrate how mere coincidence does not suffice. I believe intention really does effect things in our world. Even Jesus says that about prayer. You need to really believe it in your heart and mind to receive what you are asking for. My question is, were you thinking about this friend for a while and then talked to your wife about them? Or did your friend just pop in your head for no reason and you talked to your wife about them? Someone started this brainwave and sent it to the other with intention and they picked it up and received it willingly and wantingly. Notice how the friend didn't have some specific reason for showing up? No motive other than they have been thinking about you. That's a pure intention. I think that is important for understanding all of this. Love has no ulterior motives, just pure intention. Love is what connects us through God. That's what being "pure of heart" is all about. No hidden motives or ill intentions.

Quote:
Yes. Most of the mouthy ones are teenagers, but you have a fair amount of young adults out there that haven't outgrown it, and a decent movement started particularly in Europe. It's also becoming a huge problem in college. If you want to pass certain classes or be hired on as a professor, you'd better keep your mouth shut about certain religious views. I don't condone teaching "creation" in schools at all, but for college's to be pushing this dogma that a creator doesn't exist and science is all you need to understand the world isn't exactly true.
I completely understand the desire to rid the world of religious dogma because that stuff has been seriously harmful to the world. Which again, I think is part of the great deception. Use God as a tool to fill the world with war, violence and hate and even the good people will not believe in God. Seems pretty perfect of a deception doesn't it? Get everyone to believe there isn't a God, then they can start to believe in practically anything else you tell them. Tell everyone that God does exist, that he wants us to love each other, seek truth and stand up against lies and evil behavior, well, who can argue with that? And again, loving each other does not mean accepting and tolerating any and all behaviors, that's another deception. Satan tricks us in the grey areas by turning us to the extremes. He can even use the concept of love to trick us into tolerating evil. He uses the concept of God to trick us into supporting evil. This shit is fucking genius when you really think about it. These are the kind of lies and deception worthy of someone being called the father of lies and the prince of darkness.
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Unread 2018-05-15, 03:53 PM   #22
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I Could not agree more that we should except things as true evil. I had this conversation the other day about hitler. What he did was objectively wrong/bad. Others disagree with me saying it wasn't. And that's where the problem begins. Think about the slow deception in this type of thinking. I mean, you said it! No good outcome or results come from that type of behavior. None. So tell me how that's subjective. Where anyone would get this crazy idea it's subjective is beyond me. That type of thinking and teaching is a slow fall into anarchy and destruction of the generations that follow. Teach your children that killing is wrong, but that of course is just there opinion, and if they become mass murders there won't be any guilt on there part because they were also taught that even though someone may think it's wrong, it's just a subjective opinion at the end of the day.
Raising children is interesting. They do need guidance and love so that they can make good decisions early on in life, and become productive, but I see these built in basic moral values in kids at an early age also. No one needed to teach me killing is wrong, or rape, or torture. I didn't just pick up the bible one day and say " oh! Look, it says it's wrong to kill". These feelings were obvious to me. I just didn't know what this intrinsic value was as a child, and that's where parents come in to explain this objective/intrinsic value we have. A child needs to be taught how to interpret and move forward with these feelings. They don't need to be taught these feelings exist. Now, with that said I'm not saying children don't do bad things even if there taught not to, and they certainly can be taught to do bad things.
You don't need to Believe in God to have morals because they are built in to us from God. This is so we could survive as humans without the knowledge of God or the outright denial of God. Take a look at the animal kingdom compared to ours.... There's a striking difference between them and us that doesn't need pointed out. There clearly is no "moral" values in the animal kingdom. Just instinct and survival. Yet we evolved from these lesser minded animals.. I guess we went from "raping" other animals of our kind to spread our genes, to becoming self aware and saying, "I think it's wrong to do that". Based on what? It worked just fine and still does in the animal kingdom to ensure survival of there genes. It's because we have objective morals and intrinsic worth, and self awareness given to us by a higher "being". Atheist say they don't need God for morals, but the very fact they except there is morals, is acknowledging a "law giver" when you take in all the other factors. Atheist can and do act the same or better morally than "believers". Everyday when they try to be a good person, they are basing that off a standard of what is considered good. Where are they getting this standard, as you pointed out. It's not from society because that would be making a value claim of what's objectively good/bad, and again you would need a standard to base that off of for society. Imo, morality is one of those feelings that let you know God is personal.

My friend was a random thought my wife and I brought up. We were just saying how we were wondering how he was doing.Two days later he shows up! He was even saying he just wanted to stop by to say hi and let us know he's doing good. No more, no less. Stuff like that always blows my mind.

I get it too, if it were true. That's the deception though! When people say religion has brought on the most pain and suffering in the world, I truly shake my head. It's completely false and most are just misinformed. Most of the religious wars are fought over land and resources. They are just disguised as holy wars and used as smokescreens because it makes the other look like they are right because a "higher being" said so. That's why I think this secular movement is a dangerous one. Let men convince us that a God(s) don't exist, then you're ultimate authority will come from man. That's not to say religious people haven't committed there share of bad, but if that's how they want to play it to determine religion is bad (notice how they'll sneak a value claim in too), then they'll be very upset to find out atheist have committed more bloodshed then all the religious wars combined, to date. So what does that say about atheism? I would still pick the side of the theist as a way to live even if I knew there was no God. With theism I have a set of principles to live by that are universal. With atheisim there is no ultimate purpose in life. No self value. No meaning, even. I'm not saying that alone is a reason to believe in a God, but it is the reality of that worldview, imo.
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Unread 2018-05-15, 08:24 PM   #23
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I Could not agree more that we should except things as true evil. I had this conversation the other day about hitler. What he did was objectively wrong/bad. Others disagree with me saying it wasn't. And that's where the problem begins. Think about the slow deception in this type of thinking. I mean, you said it! No good outcome or results come from that type of behavior. None. So tell me how that's subjective. Where anyone would get this crazy idea it's subjective is beyond me. That type of thinking and teaching is a slow fall into anarchy and destruction of the generations that follow. Teach your children that killing is wrong, but that of course is just there opinion, and if they become mass murders there won't be any guilt on there part because they were also taught that even though someone may think it's wrong, it's just a subjective opinion at the end of the day.
Raising children is interesting. They do need guidance and love so that they can make good decisions early on in life, and become productive, but I see these built in basic moral values in kids at an early age also. No one needed to teach me killing is wrong, or rape, or torture. I didn't just pick up the bible one day and say " oh! Look, it says it's wrong to kill". These feelings were obvious to me. I just didn't know what this intrinsic value was as a child, and that's where parents come in to explain this objective/intrinsic value we have. A child needs to be taught how to interpret and move forward with these feelings. They don't need to be taught these feelings exist. Now, with that said I'm not saying children don't do bad things even if there taught not to, and they certainly can be taught to do bad things.
You don't need to Believe in God to have morals because they are built in to us from God. This is so we could survive as humans without the knowledge of God or the outright denial of God. Take a look at the animal kingdom compared to ours.... There's a striking difference between them and us that doesn't need pointed out. There clearly is no "moral" values in the animal kingdom. Just instinct and survival. Yet we evolved from these lesser minded animals.. I guess we went from "raping" other animals of our kind to spread our genes, to becoming self aware and saying, "I think it's wrong to do that". Based on what? It worked just fine and still does in the animal kingdom to ensure survival of there genes. It's because we have objective morals and intrinsic worth, and self awareness given to us by a higher "being". Atheist say they don't need God for morals, but the very fact they except there is morals, is acknowledging a "law giver" when you take in all the other factors. Atheist can and do act the same or better morally than "believers". Everyday when they try to be a good person, they are basing that off a standard of what is considered good. Where are they getting this standard, as you pointed out. It's not from society because that would be making a value claim of what's objectively good/bad, and again you would need a standard to base that off of for society. Imo, morality is one of those feelings that let you know God is personal.

My friend was a random thought my wife and I brought up. We were just saying how we were wondering how he was doing.Two days later he shows up! He was even saying he just wanted to stop by to say hi and let us know he's doing good. No more, no less. Stuff like that always blows my mind.
It's well known that once someone crosses the line into psychopathy and being a serial killer, there is no going back. There is no other way to describe that other than evil. That means evil exists. And if evil can exist in one person, then it can exist in larger forms as a force on the world imo.

These feelings may have been obvious to you because you were given love from your parents from the day you were born. Being held, being nurtured, having your crying be paid attention to. Imagine had you been completely neglected and given nothing but what you needed to just survive. Food, shelter, etc. I think when love enters us, it activates those feelings of compassion and empathy which tell us harming other is wrong. A child without those things was never given love. Some children may still recognize that within themselves regardless but I think that is a rare exception. There is definitely something within us that speaks to not wanting to harm others, but that feeling can be masked or ignored easily if you do not get the proper nurturing of them as a child.

Quote:
I get it too, if it were true. That's the deception though! When people say religion has brought on the most pain and suffering in the world, I truly shake my head. It's completely false and most are just misinformed. Most of the religious wars are fought over land and resources. They are just disguised as holy wars and used as smokescreens because it makes the other look like they are right because a "higher being" said so. That's why I think this secular movement is a dangerous one. Let men convince us that a God(s) don't exist, then you're ultimate authority will come from man. That's not to say religious people haven't committed there share of bad, but if that's how they want to play it to determine religion is bad (notice how they'll sneak a value claim in too), then they'll be very upset to find out atheist have committed more bloodshed then all the religious wars combined, to date. So what does that say about atheism? I would still pick the side of the theist as a way to live even if I knew there was no God. With theism I have a set of principles to live by that are universal. With atheisim there is no ultimate purpose in life. No self value. No meaning, even. I'm not saying that alone is a reason to believe in a God, but it is the reality of that worldview, imo.
That's just what I was saying though, God has been used as a justification to spread all sorts of evils in the world because of religion. Apply the bolded part to the ancient Israelites and all the battles they start in the Bible because their God told them to do so. Doesn't mean God doesn't exist, just that the extra "religious" stuff that's added to it is bullshit. That stuff separates us from each other and makes us fight over which God is the correct one and that is used to justify wars. Look at the Jews and Muslims, both claim they get to kill each other because of God. A conflict as old as time. A God of the entire Universe would not a pick a favorite group of humans. It doesn't make any sense. It's a division tactic used to start conflict and its worked so well that it's still being played out well over 2000 years later. Belief in God isn't what's wrong here, it's belief in religion and dogma. There isn't only 2 choices either, Abrahamic religions or Atheism.

In my next post, I'm going to skip the all the theories I have about what happens when you die and just post about the one that is currently making the most sense to me. It will shift the discussion to something else entirely but keep an open mind here as I have been mulling this over this for months and I've been pulled towards certain ideas and information that are only reinforcing this theory for several years of my life. One of those ideas that I've always had is that there is truth in almost every religion. Those truths hook people and get them to believe the rest which are lies, or they simply do not have the entire truth. This is what essentially keeps us separated at the base level. It's a genius strategy if your goal is the eternal conflict of humanity with itself.
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Unread 2018-05-15, 10:11 PM   #24
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I ask that anyone reading this throw away all conceptions you may have about any of the topics discussed in these links and simply read the bare bones of what is being said. Ignore the buzzwords and the references to things you might not understand or know about, just pay attention to the what's essentially being said without the over complications of the supposed full explanations. I do not believe all of this to be 100% true as I am always forever skeptical of everything but there isn't really anything in here that doesn't make sense to me that is within my understanding (but there are quite a few things that are NOT within my understand in here). Everything I have believed for a very long time and puzzle pieces I have been putting together have lead me to seriously consider this conclusion and it's one I am sure will be met with dismissal and disdain.

I am proposing that humans have been lied to and deceived for the known history of our species by extraterrestrial aliens for their own purposes. This deception is so deep, they have infiltrated every level of our world. Governments, religions, financial institutions, the military industrial complex, etc. They have fooled people into doing their bidding by promising them something in return. Take for instance people who are obsessed with becoming famous. These are usually always people who didn't get some sort of love and attention from their parents so they try to get it from the rest of the world. They get everything they think they want by essentially "selling their soul" (performing for people and selling their inner self for money and fame) and it never makes them happy and some of them lose who they really are in the process. Jim Carrey has talked about this a lot, especially in that documentary called "Jim & Andy: The Great Beyond". Great documentary btw. This is just one small example of this strategy at play.

This theory does NOT dismiss the teachings of Jesus, it actually aligns with them if you dismiss the attachment to Judaism. Read through the links here with an open mind and see if they make any sense to you.


This is just some basics to read through to get the basic idea of this theory. I'm not proposing people trust everything you read here, just apply things that speak to your own understanding. This information, like most theories that claim to be the truth, is probably based on some real truths which is attached to several lies. Never trust any one source 100%.

https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/Main_Page
The main page

https://ascensionglossary.com/index....sion_Statement
Their Mission Statement

https://ascensionglossary.com/index....ption_Strategy
https://ascensionglossary.com/index....ption_Behavior
This describes the strategy these evil forces have used against us.

https://ascensionglossary.com/index....ing_of_Tyranny
A more in depth look at a specific evil alien strategy called False King of Tyranny

https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/Power_Elite
An explanation of how the Power Elites of the world infiltrate every level of society

https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/NAA
These are the different groups of aliens that exist on our planet

https://ascensionglossary.com/index....Egypt_Invasion
This describes the Sumerian/Egypt Invasion

https://ascensionglossary.com/index....sclosure_Event
Even the Bible has an event like this in Revelation.

https://ascensionglossary.com/index.php/Law_of_One
This is the basic philosophy behind God and the Universe. If you look, you can still see the similar qualities the God Jesus speaks about has with this idea. God is love. We are all God's children connected with love through God.

https://ascensionglossary.com/index....rits_of_Christ
The idea of Christ was hijacked and attached to Judaism imo but the basics of Christ's teachings are the basis for the rescue of humanity. Freeing our minds from the hate and deception the world has fed us. If you go through this material, I am confident you will find it will align with Jesus's main teachings, sense of morals, even sexuality. But especially love, truth, hope and faith.

https://ascensionglossary.com/index....gory:Ascension
The full glossary of terms. There's a lot there so good luck.
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Unread 2018-05-18, 11:11 AM   #25
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I want to get to a few questions/comments you had in other posts that are easier for me to answer, then I'll get to your last post, which led me down the rabbit hole to other stuff that can keep me going on for hours.

The rape you talk about in dueteronomy is just a misunderstanding of the language particularly in the niv version. In the original text it uses the word "taphasa" which means to manipulate/take advantage of. The word used for rape is "chazaq" which is not used in Deuteronomy. In the passage you gave it is talking about fornication between two and being caught.(notice how it says "and they are found"). So he HAS to marry her now, just like it says in Exodus 22:16-17. If a man SEDUCES a virgin he has to pay the price for her, and make her his wife. Read further down in the passage 25 through 27. It basically says if a man finds a woman in OPEN COUNTRY, seizes her, and has sex with her and she CRIES FOR HELP, that man shall be put to death. It says nothing about the woman crying for help in the first passage to illustrate the two differences between rape and consensual fornication. That passage right there says rape is punishable by death.

The disobedient child is another one of those that are misunderstood. There not saying stone your child to death for them simply being disobedient on simple matters like talking back or not doing what there told. It is for the child that is truly bad, and committing evil acts and cannot be taught otherwise. It gives a lot of context in that passage in reference to a child that is so bad and commits multiple crimes, has no regard for the community, and who has been given many chances. It's for truly "evil" children. Notice how it never gave even one incident of this type of punishment taking place though...

God sending his only son to die on the cross is complicated depending on how you interpret Christianity. You have a religious pluralism take on Christianity so it can be difficult to convey the importance of his sacrifice because it's unique just to Christianity. But if he had never died and rose from the dead I think Christianity would have fell flat on its face and died out just like all the other religions because the Jews would have been ecstatic to find out it was all fake and they would have made sure everyone else knew it was. Yet it didn't, and it dominated religious culture from then till now. However, he needed to die and rise again, to not only bare the sin of man, but to make them see the truth in his word. It represents hope in eternal life after death. That's why he "hung around" for 40 days after, so everyone could see this miracle and know he's the true son of God and his word is truth. It represents hope and a promise for people even after death. It shows that his words were not blasphemous, but truth. I don't think Christianity would have been taken as serious as it has, or at all, If that didn't happen.

So, God said let there be light. It wasn't until the 4th day he made morning and evening. In verse 16 it says God made the sun, moon, and stars in the verb form, the completed Hebrew verb form. So he had already made all the matter in the universe at an unspecified time. It could have been on day 1, 2, 3. Who knows. Now remember it said in Job the earth was covered in a shroud of darkness, which I interpret as the early formation of the earth atmosphere. So it was opaque at this point (dark) and It says let there BE light on day one, not that he CREATED light on that day. The source of the light has already been made. So in day one the earths atmosphere turned from opaque to translucent, which is what happens in the evolution of earth like/size planets, just take a look at Venus (except it's still opaque). So we have light but not from the visibility of the sun yet because of this "overcast". So skip to day four and it says let there BE the great lights, not that he created the great lights on that day. So this is the second formation of the earths atmosphere. It goes from translucent to transparent, which again, would be consistent with planetary evolution. It says God was hovering over the face of the waters. So it's making an illustration of perspective from the earth, not space, and it lines up, so far, from a scientific perspective of what creation would look like from this vantage point. All it's saying is that on day four God made the sun, moon, and stars visible, not that he created them on those days. So it's not until day four that the REASON for that light can be seen.
I don't believe these were 6 literal days either. The word "yam" (day) is used for many different meanings in Hebrew. It's the same way we use the word today. We might have worked In the yard for 6-7 hours, then when you tell someone you might say, "that took all day", but of course we didn't mean 24hrs. In genesis 2:4 it uses the word day to refer to the entire creation story.... Plus we don't see and evening and morning for the 7th day. God has Adam name all the animals which would certainly take longer than 24 hours. And the translation of the word Adam used when he saw Eve was, "at long last". I don't think he would have said that if he only had to wait 24 hours. It says let the plants, not God, bring forth there seeds and multiply. I would assume it took a very long time to get the diversity of plant life we see today.
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