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Unread 2017-09-19, 05:05 PM   #1
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Default Something to Remember As the Dems Proceed in 2021

apparently, its completely normal for the US Senate to remake 1/6th of the US economy completely behind closed doors, without any meaningful public discussion, debate, hearings, without any rational idea of how much it will cost or how many people it will impact directly, and with only 50 votes...

just remember this when Medicare for all happens in 2021.

in the metaphor of "you reap what you sow" this is the part where the sowing happened if this passes:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.aaaf6dbbe779
Quote:
Congress’s nonpartisan budget analyst said it is working to provide a “preliminary assessment” of the latest Republican health-care bill by early next week but will not estimate how the measure would affect health insurance premiums or the number of people with medical coverage until later.

The notice Monday from the Congressional Budget Office angered Democrats, who planned to use the complete figures to hammer the Graham-Cassidy legislation, which is picking up steam in the Senate ahead of a possible vote within two weeks.

The bill would devolve federal health spending and policy authority to states and could cause millions to lose health insurance, a fact that might persuade pivotal Republican senators to vote against it.

“CBO will provide as much qualitative information as possible about the effects of the legislation, however CBO will not be able to provide point estimates of the effects on the deficit, health insurance coverage, or premiums for at least several weeks,” two CBO officials wrote in a blog post Monday.

Senate Republicans are under pressure to approve legislation that kills Obamacare before the end of the month, when the upper chamber’s ability to pass budget bills with 51 rather than 60 votes expires. The CBO announcement raised the possibility that a vote could come before the office’s complete analysis is released.
edit* but then again who am I kidding? the Dems will pussy foot around this and actually try to restore the legislative process just like they did with the ACA while allowing Republicans to fuck them over so that the end result is worse for the American people and it will take a full year of hearings to pass...
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Unread 2017-09-20, 08:43 AM   #2
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Why ANYONE would think it would be OK to vote on a bill that impacts the American people this much without waiting for all of the facts is completely mind boggling.

I'm not even talking about my opinion of the bill.. I mean that generally.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 09:08 AM   #3
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Even if we lose seats in the house or senate by then, Trump will still be able to veto any bullshit the dems try to push through in 2021.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 09:47 AM   #4
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Why ANYONE would think it would be OK to vote on a bill that impacts the American people this much without waiting for all of the facts is completely mind boggling.

I'm not even talking about my opinion of the bill.. I mean that generally.
there will literally be 90 seconds of public debate on the floor of the Senate about this attempt to remake 1/6th of the US economy.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 10:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by phreakdna View Post
apparently, its completely normal for the US Senate to remake 1/6th of the US economy completely behind closed doors, without any meaningful public discussion, debate, hearings, without any rational idea of how much it will cost or how many people it will impact directly, and with only 50 votes...
I know, it was terrible when the Dems did that. Thankfully the GOP is trying to fix that mistake.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 10:08 AM   #6
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there will literally be 90 seconds of public debate on the floor of the Senate about this attempt to remake 1/6th of the US economy.
At least that is more than what the Dems had when they did the same thing.

Actually giving the people back 1/6th of the economy from the government is a good thing unless you are a Socialist. Look how well that is working in Venezuela.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 10:25 AM   #7
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I know, it was terrible when the Dems did that. Thankfully the GOP is trying to fix that mistake.
So to fix the terrible thing the Democrats did, the GOP should do something terrible?
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Unread 2017-09-20, 10:45 AM   #8
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I know, it was terrible when the Dems did that. Thankfully the GOP is trying to fix that mistake.
today's challenge:
backup this completely made up bullshit with a reference to what you're blathering on about.

I'll even give you some help... in addition to the thousands of hours of public hearings, testimony and debate about the underpinnings of the bill and the bill being almost exclusively based on the policies that came from those hearings, testimony, and debate, the actual text of the bill was debated in the Senate for 5 days and the bill had a full CBO score so I know you're not talking about that...
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Unread 2017-09-20, 10:52 AM   #9
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So to fix the terrible thing the Democrats did, the GOP should do something terrible?
So you agree the dems did a terrible thing with Obamacare.

Now let the gop fix it.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 10:54 AM   #10
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today's challenge:
backup this completely made up bullshit with a reference to what you're blathering on about.
They debated nothing. Support the statement we have to pass the bill to see whats in it.

Debating an incomplete bill is debating nothing.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 10:57 AM   #11
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So you agree the dems did a terrible thing with Obamacare.

Now let the gop fix it.
I'm using your words. You said the Democrats did something terrible by doing it behind closed doors, without any meaningful public discussion, debate, hearings, without any rational idea of how much it will cost. That's what the GOP is doing (only even more hidden). If what Obama did is terrible, what the GOP is doing is terrible by your logic.

I'm not talking about the content. I'm talking about the process.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 11:41 AM   #12
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GOP and Trump are gods gift to mankind, they can do no wrong, even when the other side already did the same thing in a very similar manner, but it's the GOP so it's completely okay to do now.
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Unread 2017-09-20, 12:09 PM   #13
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They debated nothing. Support the statement we have to pass the bill to see whats in it.

Debating an incomplete bill is debating nothing.
so you are declining the challenge? because you haven't posted any facts or anything to backup your argument.

try again because this attempt has failed. I'll even give you a refresher since your memory seems to be fuzzy about what happened
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Unread 2017-09-21, 11:47 AM   #14
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Insurers Come Out Swinging Against New Republican Health Care Bill
By ROBERT PEARSEPT. 20, 2017

WASHINGTON — The health insurance industry, after cautiously watching Republican health care efforts for months, came out forcefully on Wednesday against the Senate’s latest bill to repeal the Affordable Care Act, suggesting that its state-by-state block grants could create health care chaos in the short term and a Balkanized, uncertain insurance market.

In the face of the industry opposition, Senate Republican leaders nevertheless said they would push for a showdown vote next week on the legislation, drafted by Senators Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Bill Cassidy of Louisiana.

That puts Republican senators in a squeeze, especially those whose states would lose money under a complicated formula in the bill. Generally, it would shift federal funds away from states that have been successful in expanding coverage to states where Republican leaders refused to expand Medicaid or encourage enrollment.

Republican senators from Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Ohio and West Virginia will all have to decide whether to heed the pleas of consumers who like the current health law — or yield to the will of Republican leaders, donors and voters who demand an end to the Affordable Care Act.

That has put the spotlight not only on the three Republicans who killed the repeal drive in July — Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, John McCain of Arizona and Susan Collins of Maine — but also on those who have been reluctantly supportive, such as Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia, Cory Gardner of Colorado and Rob Portman of Ohio.

Senate Republicans are already under pressure from 11 governors — including five fellow Republicans and a pivotal Alaskan independent — who this week urged the Senate to reject the last-ditch repeal effort.

The two major trade groups for insurers, the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association and America’s Health Insurance Plans, announced their opposition on Wednesday to the Graham-Cassidy bill. They joined other groups fighting the bill, such as the American Medical Association, the American Hospital Association, AARP and the lobbying arm of the American Cancer Society.

“The bill contains provisions that would allow states to waive key consumer protections, as well as undermine safeguards for those with pre-existing medical conditions,’’ said Scott P. Serota, the president and chief executive of the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association. “The legislation reduces funding for many states significantly and would increase uncertainty in the marketplace, making coverage more expensive and jeopardizing Americans’ choice of health plans.”

America’s Health Insurance Plans was even more pointed. The legislation could hurt patients by “further destabilizing the individual market” and could potentially allow “government-controlled single payer health care to grow,” said Marilyn B. Tavenner, the president and chief executive of the association. Without controls, some states could simply eliminate private insurance, she warned.

Insurers had been reluctant to speak out against the Republicans’ previous proposals in hopes that the White House and Congress would agree to stabilize insurance markets by providing critical funding for subsidies aimed at low-income Americans. But with hopes of securing that money before they finalize their rates virtually extinguished, insurers have less to lose by coming out against the proposal.

And many within the industry are worried that the next two years will be chaotic, with little support for the current market while states scramble to come up with a new way for individuals to buy policies.

“It’s just basically injecting chaos in 50 state capitals for the next two years,” said Sabrina Corlette, a research professor at Georgetown University.

At this point, Republicans have not secured the 50 votes they would need to pass the bill, with help from Vice President Mike Pence to break a tie. But President Trump, in New York for meetings with world leaders at the United Nations, said he thought the health care bill had “a very good chance’’ of passing.

It has “tremendous support from Republicans — certainly we’re at 47 or 48 already,’’ he said, and “a lot of others are looking at it very positively.’’

“A great Bill,” Mr. Trump concluded on Twitter later Wednesday.

The latest Republican drive to repeal the Affordable Care Act has created painful choices for Republican senators from states that stand to lose money under the legislation.

The bill would eliminate penalties for people who go without insurance, and it would funnel federal funds to states in the form of block grants for health care or coverage. States could decide how to spend the money, which is now being used for the expansion of Medicaid and for subsidies to help low- and middle-income people buy private insurance.

State officials were racing to try to figure out the impact, looking to experts to help them do the calculations.

“States such as Alaska, Connecticut, Delaware, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Vermont and Washington would see reductions of 25 percent or more over the 2020 to 2026 period,” compared with what they would receive under current law, said a monograph issued on Wednesday by Manatt Health, a unit of Manatt, Phelps & Phillips, a national law firm that advises many states on health care issues.

Among the Republicans agonizing over how to vote is Ms. Murkowski, who has said the bill’s effect on her state will be her paramount consideration.


Becky Hultberg, the president and chief executive of the Alaska State Hospital and Nursing Home Association, said on Wednesday that the cuts in the bill could have a “huge impact” on Alaska.

“The cuts could be devastating to our health care system, including rural and frontier hospitals that operate on razor-thin margins,” Ms. Hultberg said in an interview. “These hospitals are often accessible only by airplane or ferry, so the loss of a hospital means an expensive and disruptive medical evacuation out of the community.”

“Ultimately,” Ms. Hultberg said, “patients will bear the consequences, through reduced access to health care and lost insurance coverage.”

The authors of the new repeal bill, Mr. Graham and Mr. Cassidy, say decisions about health care are best made at the local level.

Mr. McCain is a close friend of Mr. Graham, but is still studying the bill and has not said how he would vote.

The other Republican senator from Arizona, Jeff Flake, had no such hesitation. “Given the choice between Arizona or Washington deciding how federal health care dollars are spent in the state,’’ he said, “I’ll take Arizona every day of the week.’’

The Manatt study said Arizona would lose money under the bill, and a study by Avalere, a health policy consulting company, reached a similar conclusion. Both studies indicated that Tennessee would gain money.

Senator Bob Corker, Republican of Tennessee, said he liked the latest repeal bill. “I’d be ecstatic if we could finally make something happen on health care’’ by passing it, he said, adding: “I’m a states’ rights kind of guy. Our state has been well run for a long time. To know that our state would have the flexibility to carry out the program with more money than it now has could be a real win for us.’’

The studies by Manatt and Avalere suggest that West Virginia would lose money under the bill. Ms. Capito “is still evaluating the proposal,” said her spokeswoman, Ashley Berrang.

But the state’s senior senator, Joe Manchin III, a Democrat, said, “The numbers do not work at all for West Virginia, with an older, sicker population and an opioid addiction problem.”

“As a former governor, I like the concept of block grants because they give you flexibility,” Mr. Manchin said. “But the cuts are deeper than the needs we have, and our needs are greater than the money we would have under the bill.”
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...re-repeal.html

The (vast) majority of the population supports keeping ACA, hospital associations/organizations oppose this bill, insurance companies oppose this bill. Legitimately... who actually supports this bill besides a few (not all) republicans in Washington?
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Unread 2017-09-21, 01:40 PM   #15
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Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...re-repeal.html

The (vast) majority of the population supports keeping ACA, hospital associations/organizations oppose this bill, insurance companies oppose this bill. Legitimately... who actually supports this bill besides a few (not all) republicans in Washington?
Republican primary voters... the goal isn't to make good policy or even worry if the policy's effects that make it good/bad but rather to gut something with Obama's name on it (that they put there when it didn't have his name on it) and undercut his legacy.

its a post-policy party acting sheerly on id. Trump makes so much more sense once you accept that position
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Unread 2017-09-25, 10:27 AM   #16
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so you are declining the challenge? because you haven't posted any facts or anything to backup your argument.

try again because this attempt has failed. I'll even give you a refresher since your memory seems to be fuzzy about what happened
From your link:
The Bottom Line

As we noted, Republicans have skipped the lengthy, open process of hearings and markups of legislation that characterized the Democrats’ march to passage of the ACA. Instead, they moved directly to floor votes. Moreover, Democrats at first tried to enlist some Republican support, while Republicans have not reached out to Democrats.
But recalling the second-longest Senate session obscures the fact that the floor debate was mostly for show, an exercise designed to allow the closed-door negotiations that shaped the final bill to take place. Once the deal was struck, Reid pushed the final draft forward with as much speed as possible. That’s what McConnell is doing now, having skipped the preliminaries.

Don't forget Pelosi's dumb ass remark about having to "pass it so we can see what's in it." Correct on context or not, it was not all out there for all to see.

The length of time involved to get ACA passed took years. No need to expect the GOP to do this any faster. So bash away at this fiasco all you want. It is far from over. All the maneuvering required for something like this will be very much like what the Dems did. Rest assured, more changes will come before a final passing vote. One thing you can count on though, the division of whether or not it is good or bad for the country as a whole will not change. Doesn't matter which party does this, it will suck to high heaven. Dems were not any better than GOP. So I really don't understand why you allegedly intelligent people feel the need to fight over who is right/wrong. We are fucked no matter what.

20 years ago I paid $0 (zero, zip, zilch, nada) a month for my family plan. 5 years later it went to about $30. Now, I pay $400 and have higher deductibles, higher co-pays depending on situation, and less overall coverage. Thanks ACA. Pretty soon I get to say "Thanks GOP" for more of the same.
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Unread 2017-09-25, 11:32 AM   #17
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From your link:
The Bottom Line

As we noted, Republicans have skipped the lengthy, open process of hearings and markups of legislation that characterized the Democrats’ march to passage of the ACA. Instead, they moved directly to floor votes. Moreover, Democrats at first tried to enlist some Republican support, while Republicans have not reached out to Democrats.
But recalling the second-longest Senate session obscures the fact that the floor debate was mostly for show, an exercise designed to allow the closed-door negotiations that shaped the final bill to take place. Once the deal was struck, Reid pushed the final draft forward with as much speed as possible. That’s what McConnell is doing now, having skipped the preliminaries.

Don't forget Pelosi's dumb ass remark about having to "pass it so we can see what's in it." Correct on context or not, it was not all out there for all to see.

The length of time involved to get ACA passed took years. No need to expect the GOP to do this any faster. So bash away at this fiasco all you want. It is far from over. All the maneuvering required for something like this will be very much like what the Dems did. Rest assured, more changes will come before a final passing vote. One thing you can count on though, the division of whether or not it is good or bad for the country as a whole will not change. Doesn't matter which party does this, it will suck to high heaven. Dems were not any better than GOP. So I really don't understand why you allegedly intelligent people feel the need to fight over who is right/wrong. We are fucked no matter what.

20 years ago I paid $0 (zero, zip, zilch, nada) a month for my family plan. 5 years later it went to about $30. Now, I pay $400 and have higher deductibles, higher co-pays depending on situation, and less overall coverage. Thanks ACA. Pretty soon I get to say "Thanks GOP" for more of the same.
yes, the second longest part was more fluff than substance but I/DIY were talking about 90 seconds of debate, the overwhelming majority of the ACA was the subject of in session/committee debate for months and the tweaks at the end were publicly available for 5 days in the Senate so its not the same thing...

I specifically linked that article because it is relatively even-handed, calling out Schumer's bullshit and laying out the facts of what actually happened. the facts of what actually happened show that the procedure for this bill and the last one have been different in very meaningful ways from how things happened back in 2009 and Republicans have been and continue to change the way Congress operates in rather profound ways.

while I feel like I understand your frustration, this 'fuck em all' mentality just isn't something I can get behind because I feel like its a path where there isn't any way forward/out of. if we don't appreciate what is changing, why its changing, and why that change is bad, I don't understand how there is any hope for things to get better because when the time comes for us to have a voice in who represents us, all the options look equally shitty... sometimes they are but rarely is there a situation where there isn't a better choice based on how they want the process to work.
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Unread 2017-09-26, 11:51 AM   #18
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I really do believe that a large portion of the reason that Trump and the GOP won in the last election, was because Obamacare really stuck it to a lot of working, middle class voters. It doesn't matter how the Dems went about it, year after year, people notice it more and more in their wallets. That is not sustainable and I really believe, hurts other parts of the economy.

The Reps could look like fucking heroes or choose to float another turd around the bowl. So far, they have chose the latter. It seems like they would rather shift the burden and tough decisions to the states to say "We did it" than come up with a meaningful solution that has a shot at working. They are doing nothing but boosting support for single payer by keeping this up.
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Unread 2017-09-26, 01:15 PM   #19
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They are doing nothing but boosting support for single payer by keeping this up.

Wasn't that the goal of the ACA all along? To be a stepping stone to single payer?
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Unread 2017-09-26, 01:25 PM   #20
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Wasn't that the goal of the ACA all along? To be a stepping stone to single payer?
not imo. imo it was a last gasp for trying to make a public & private co-op system work... trying to see if they could achieve the goal of accessible, relatively affordable healthcare in a market dominated by private companies. it doesn't seem to have worked and apparently there aren't many better solutions available because the GOP has had 8 years to come up with a credible alternative and they don't appear to have been able to.

if this problem was easy to solve or if the ACA was easily fixable in meaningful ways, that would be much easier that crafting shitty alternatives from scratch which is what the GOP has done. if you accept the goals of accessible, affordable healthcare as the goal of your system that relies primarily on private insurance as its backbone, you get something akin to the ACA. single payer is the obvious solution if those are your goals because it relies on the bedrock principles under the concepts of economies of scale and insurance generally but that's the boogeyman for most conservatives despite the obvious benefits so we keep playing Charlie to the health insurance industry's Lucy...

the ACA's goal was to try and create a better system using the current public & private co-op model. it was supposed to stave off the obvious answer of single payer if there was a viable alternative. and maybe if we could actually compromise to make it better it could work... but as it stands, one side only wants to undercut it which is, ironically, only making single payer more of a possibility.
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Unread 2017-09-26, 01:39 PM   #21
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GOP basically had 8 years to write a paper, spent 7.75 years procrastinating, then decided to write it the night before.
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Unread 2017-09-26, 02:14 PM   #22
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GOP basically had 8 years to write a paper, spent 7.75 years procrastinating, then decided to write it the night before.
Well, they probably thought the paper wasn't going to be due for another 8 years...
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Unread 2017-09-26, 02:20 PM   #23
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not imo. imo it was a last gasp for trying to make a public & private co-op system work... trying to see if they could achieve the goal of accessible, relatively affordable healthcare in a market dominated by private companies. it doesn't seem to have worked and apparently there aren't many better solutions available because the GOP has had 8 years to come up with a credible alternative and they don't appear to have been able to.

if this problem was easy to solve or if the ACA was easily fixable in meaningful ways, that would be much easier that crafting shitty alternatives from scratch which is what the GOP has done. if you accept the goals of accessible, affordable healthcare as the goal of your system that relies primarily on private insurance as its backbone, you get something akin to the ACA. single payer is the obvious solution if those are your goals because it relies on the bedrock principles under the concepts of economies of scale and insurance generally but that's the boogeyman for most conservatives despite the obvious benefits so we keep playing Charlie to the health insurance industry's Lucy...

the ACA's goal was to try and create a better system using the current public & private co-op model. it was supposed to stave off the obvious answer of single payer if there was a viable alternative. and maybe if we could actually compromise to make it better it could work... but as it stands, one side only wants to undercut it which is, ironically, only making single payer more of a possibility.
I agree with pretty much everything here... and it's infuriating that politics is so much more important than attempting to fix this. I truly feel it's fixable with a basic ACA outline.
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Unread 2017-09-26, 03:07 PM   #24
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Well, they probably thought the paper wasn't going to be due for another 8 years...
that's a factor but even if they didn't think they could make it law in the meantime, assuming they actually came up with a better system? they could've beaten Hillary and other Dems with it all election cycle if it was actually better and Dems didn't get on board.

and, as a bonus, they could've actually made Americans' lives better in the process because Dems would've had to get behind some reforms if they improved the system.

the cynic in me says you're right to a certain degree but on the same token if they actually believe that the ACA is this terrible monstrosity, it shouldn't be that hard to write something meaningfully better, right? yet, instead, every plan they've come up with hurts people even more than the ACA does by making some combination of benefits/protections worse and costs higher...
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Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that ”all men are created equal.” We now practically read it “all men are created equal, except negroes” When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read “all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.” When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocricy. - Lincoln
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Unread 2017-09-26, 03:14 PM   #25
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Wasn't that the goal of the ACA all along? To be a stepping stone to single payer?

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not imo. imo it was a last gasp for trying to make a public & private co-op system work...
^^ No, Obama said as much in a meeting. He couldn't get single payer (Government Healthcare) in one step so this was a step toward that.
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