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Unread 2010-12-07, 08:56 PM   #51
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So foreign markets aren't allowed to participate in regular municipal bonds? I'm not sure what's stopping them either way. Weird.
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Unread 2010-12-08, 10:20 AM   #52
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I don't see an issue...

For the UE extension we're discussing giving away money to people who aren't working (PAST the time frame they were already scheduled to get money).

For the tax extension we're discussing not TAKING MORE MONEY from some of the hardest workers in our country that keep this country running.

Just at a basic level I get why they're not calling for cuts to cover that.


The net effect on the budget/deficit is no different, the mechanism is all the differs.

Keep taxes low -----> deficit goes up

Increase spending ----- deficit goes up.

If they were serious about cutting the deficit they should have been pushing for spending cuts to cover extending the tax cuts.
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Unread 2010-12-08, 11:13 AM   #53
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The immediate result is not the only thing that needs to be considered when making political decisions in our country calispec.
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Unread 2010-12-08, 11:51 AM   #54
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The immediate result is not the only thing that needs to be considered when making political decisions in our country calispec.
Exactly, which is why putting $450bn of tax cuts on the credit card, to be paid later, is wrong.

That is $450bn over two years! How is adding that additional amount onto the debt for two years worth of feelgoodedness not focusing just on the immediate results?

And what is worse, is that they are cutting the social security taxes too. At a time when we have more people than ever retiring and beginning to collect from a system that is already in the red? That is colossally fucking stupid.

If the republicans were going to hold congress hostage over the tax issue, they should have been demanding spending cuts in exchange for the expiration of the tax cuts. Say, "fuck you, you want to let the cuts expire, then we demand you cut spending equal to the additional amount of money the American taxpayers are going to be paying in taxes. You want taxpayers to make cuts to their budget, then the federal government should make equal cuts".

This action is the opposite of fiscal responsibility.
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Unread 2010-12-08, 12:07 PM   #55
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Well we are in agreement that they need to be cutting spending. This is the reason I'm so ridiculously opposed to tax increases... yes we need them because we are broke... the problem is they can fix the broke issue other ways than just taking MORE of my money and continuing to misuse/overspend everything they get. If we demand no more tax increases, either everything folds or they go make their cuts elsewhere, and that IS what I want.
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Unread 2010-12-08, 12:24 PM   #56
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They really need to figure out how to do what everyone in the private industry did the last 2 years. Do more work with Less money and man power. Increase effeciency.

Keeping the tax cuts was a win politically, but a loss practically..
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Unread 2010-12-08, 12:38 PM   #57
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And what is worse, is that they are cutting the social security taxes too. At a time when we have more people than ever retiring and beginning to collect from a system that is already in the red? That is colossally fucking stupid.
not sure if you're aware or not but the 'tax cut' of social security taxes won't effect the social security trust fund bottom line. the 'cut' will show up on individuals' paychecks but the money that would've been brought in from taxpayers and put into social security will be pulled from the general budget (i.e. deficit up) and put into social security...
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Unread 2010-12-08, 12:46 PM   #58
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not sure if you're aware or not but the 'tax cut' of social security taxes won't effect the social security trust fund bottom line. the 'cut' will show up on individuals' paychecks but the money that would've been brought in from taxpayers and put into social security will be pulled from the general budget (i.e. deficit up) and put into social security...
Yes. But as we currently have more employable (theoretically) people than ever, now would be a damn good time to collect money from those people before they start switching from paying into the system to collecting from it.
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Unread 2010-12-08, 03:07 PM   #59
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Yes. But as we currently have more employable (theoretically) people than ever, now would be a damn good time to collect money from those people before they start switching from paying into the system to collecting from it.
not disagreeing, just an interesting note that I didn't realize until I'd read more about the 'deal' that's currently on the table. originally, I thought it was a terrible idea meant to help starve off social security but instead its just another way to say "I gave you a tax cut!" while throwing it on the deficit/general spending.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 11:57 AM   #60
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Dems in the house prevented a vote on it. Sucks for Obama because he is stuck, he knows he has to play ball but the Dems (despite the ass kicking they received) believe they wield all of the power now. So nothing will happen on this and they will blame the opposition despite the fact that, well, they did come up with something and it was something the white house could back.

The Dems, the party of "no."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...pt=T1&iref=BN1
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Unread 2010-12-09, 12:25 PM   #61
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Dems in the house prevented a vote on it. Sucks for Obama because he is stuck, he knows he has to play ball but the Dems (despite the ass kicking they received) believe they wield all of the power now. So nothing will happen on this and they will blame the opposition despite the fact that, well, they did come up with something and it was something the white house could back.

The Dems, the party of "no."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...pt=T1&iref=BN1
lol he only 'knows he has to play ball' because in the ass-backwards modern Senate 43 > 57... and the 43 have literally taken the 'hostage taker/terrorist' route.

I really hope that Jeff Merkeley's proposal to modify the filibuster pass come January:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plu...orm%20Memo.pdf
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Unread 2010-12-09, 12:32 PM   #62
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So which ones are the assholes now though? The pubs were assholes before blocking shit they didnt agree with? But now the Dems ARENT assholes for blocking the shit they dont agree with?

The pubs and the white house have a plan, even if its flawed. And now the dems in congress are "holding the middle class hostage" in order to prevent the current tax rate from continuing for wealthy and small business owners who are s-corps.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 12:49 PM   #63
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So which ones are the assholes now though? The pubs were assholes before blocking shit they didnt agree with? But now the Dems ARENT assholes for blocking the shit they dont agree with?

The pubs and the white house have a plan, even if its flawed. And now the dems in congress are "holding the middle class hostage" in order to prevent the current tax rate from continuing for wealthy and small business owners who are s-corps.
the republicans were assholes for blocking just about everything, whether they agreed with it or not. there were things and nominations that were filibustered that passed 98-0 when they finally received a vote. just like the START treaty, the Republicans refuse to take yes for an answer (Kyl has gotten everything he asked for in negotiations with the WH) because they don't mind putting partisan hackery above what is literally our national security and the American public.

the democratic caucus (a majority in the house) does not agree with the proposal so Pelosi isn't scheduling a vote for it. they already voted on a tax cut package and it passed but is languishing in the senate and will continue to do so.

perhaps they should hold a vote on it but if it fails it will be a more public embarassment of Obama and while they don't like his deal, I don't think they want that either. they aren't holding the middle class hostage because they already passed a bill that would take care of them.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 12:51 PM   #64
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Fundamentally they agreed that things like healthcare for children and underprivileged should be considered an things like cancelling valid policies shouldn't be allowed, they just thought THAT bill was a pile of shit. Just like how the Dems think this bill is a pile of shit.

They also just cancelled a vote on the dream act. Gonna pull something from your end of the spectrum out:

PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO!


:P
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Unread 2010-12-09, 12:58 PM   #65
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Fundamentally they agreed that things like healthcare for children and underprivileged should be considered an things like cancelling valid policies shouldn't be allowed, they just thought THAT bill was a pile of shit. Just like how the Dems think this bill is a pile of shit.

They also just cancelled a vote on the dream act. Gonna pull something from your end of the spectrum out:

PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO! PARTY OF NO!


:P
who cancelled a vote on the DREAM Act? the Senate? the House passed it yesterday. The Senate is cancelling a vote because they already know it will be filibustered and not passed. despite the fact that it was created with sitting Republican co-sponsors, they can't get 3 republicans to vote for cloture. again 43 > 57 in the Senate because rich people's taxes might go back to the terrible rates of the 90s...
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Unread 2010-12-09, 01:21 PM   #66
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and yes I can see your point but the underlying issue remains... the only reason this compromise is even being discussed is because of Republican actions. they literally broke the Senate (within the rules, to their credit) and this is the result of (impressively) comprehensive, rigid party unity above all else. if it didn't fuck over the country, I'd probably even have respect for it, it is an impressive feat.

also for someone that presumably thinks the '10 elections should have some consequence, I'd ask how does that relate to the '06 and '08 elections? and that's not even getting into the fact that when you look at the polls beyond the simple who did you vote for numbers, Republican ideas are not popular and the Dem ones continue to be, people were just pissed off at the status quo and there were simply more Democrats up for election.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 01:40 PM   #67
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Republican ideas are not popular and the Dem ones continue to be
Not trying to sound like an asshole here, but what Dem ideas have been popular? The stimulus, healthcare bill, and the DREAM act have all taken heavy fire from most of the general public IMO.

Side note: Even though I am married with one child, and would greatly benefit from extending the tax cuts, it is my opinion that neither the tax cuts nor unemployment benefits should be extended further.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 01:44 PM   #68
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What is defined as the status quo at this point? The dems forcing through an unpopular bill while they call the Pubs the party of no for going against it? The republicans for using the rules to attempt to block bills they saw as bad and the dems using another rule (even more obscure bullshit than a filibuster) to push through a bill that even members of their own party knew was heavily flawed?

Just wondering, when do they stop just being your team and being at fault for the current situation? Right now the status quo is the liberal social agenda (I say liberal over Dem because even a lot of Dems dont agree with a ton of the shit coming from the farther left) and it appears that most of the country, while on board with some of the shit, doesnt seem to think things like the DREAM Act and dont ask, dont tell should be high priority.

If that wasnt the case then the Dems would have just put the bill to a vote and said "look at those assholes blocking it." But it turns out the technique doesnt work.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 02:45 PM   #69
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Not trying to sound like an asshole here, but what Dem ideas have been popular? The stimulus, healthcare bill, and the DREAM act have all taken heavy fire from most of the general public IMO.

Side note: Even though I am married with one child, and would greatly benefit from extending the tax cuts, it is my opinion that neither the tax cuts nor unemployment benefits should be extended further.

I was going to make a point along these lines.

In 2008 the Dems got a majority of the votes, but then couldn't come up with a a single proposal that a majority of people support.

Neither the stimulus nor the HC Bill were supported by a majority of Americans.


Now, the real kick in the balls here, is that the majority of Americans support letting the BTC's expire for the rich. And while (as I understand it) that is the position of the Dems, they aren't going to get it passed. Thus (through no fault of their own) their streak will live on.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 02:52 PM   #70
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Dems in the house prevented a vote on it. Sucks for Obama because he is stuck, he knows he has to play ball but the Dems (despite the ass kicking they received) believe they wield all of the power now. So nothing will happen on this and they will blame the opposition despite the fact that, well, they did come up with something and it was something the white house could back.

The Dems, the party of "no."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...pt=T1&iref=BN1
Holy wow unexpected! How do they see this as a positive for themselves? I cannot believe they voted no...
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Unread 2010-12-09, 02:53 PM   #71
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and it appears that most of the country, while on board with some of the shit, doesnt seem to think things like the DREAM Act and dont ask, dont tell should be high priority.
.
To be fair though, while ending DADT (arguably) shouldn't be a high priority, it also shouldn't be the clusterfuck that some people are turning it into.

This is the military, order the troops to treat each other with mutual respect, if they don't, then court-martial their asses. It should take all of 2 hours to get this taken care of and then we can all move on.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 03:12 PM   #72
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To be fair though, while ending DADT (arguably) shouldn't be a high priority, it also shouldn't be the clusterfuck that some people are turning it into.

This is the military, order the troops to treat each other with mutual respect, if they don't, then court-martial their asses. It should take all of 2 hours to get this taken care of and then we can all move on.
I concur, just that it isnt a priority for this lame-duck congress. The reason its on the table is because they are pushing liberal agenda over what people are really worried about.

I do think its a bit of a cluster fuck though, as they will likely be NJPs everywhere because issues that will arise. Its a bit more complicated than just a job.
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Unread 2010-12-09, 03:24 PM   #73
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I was going to make a point along these lines.

In 2008 the Dems got a majority of the votes, but then couldn't come up with a a single proposal that a majority of people support.

Neither the stimulus nor the HC Bill were supported by a majority of Americans.


Now, the real kick in the balls here, is that the majority of Americans support letting the BTC's expire for the rich. And while (as I understand it) that is the position of the Dems, they aren't going to get it passed. Thus (through no fault of their own) their streak will live on.
Zadroga 9/11 Healthcare Fund Bill has majority support, it just got shot down today in the Senate 57-42 (58-41 b/c Reid voted no for procedural reasons).

DADT repeal has had majority support but John McCain is an assclown that anyone with a modecum of logic and thought has to conclude hates gays so that's probably not going to pass.

the very first thing that this Congress passed was the Lily Ledbetter act that had majority support in the public (among those that knew anything about it).

financial industry reform had majority support and passed.

credit card reform had majority support and passed.

school loan reform had majority support (again among those with an opinion/knowledge) and passed.

the ACA as a package was opposed but the individual components have majority support other than the individual mandate. unfortunately, you cannot have the other parts without the individual mandate so; yes, the package is unpopular but you would bankrupt health insurance companies and entice anyone with a brain to commit insurance fraud without it.

the Dems pushed through some good bills (some supported by a majority others not) despite Republican obstruction to some of their own bills and ideas. they also pushed through some bills I don't think were as good but this isn't a true democracy... otherwise we'd be out of Iraq/Afghanistan, there would be no DADT, the financial industry would only have abicuses to play with, taxes would be 0% and the gov't would collapse for lack of funding.
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Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that ”all men are created equal.” We now practically read it “all men are created equal, except negroes” When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read “all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.” When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocricy. - Lincoln
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Unread 2010-12-09, 03:28 PM   #74
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I concur, just that it isnt a priority for this lame-duck congress. The reason its on the table is because they are pushing liberal agenda over what people are really worried about.

I do think its a bit of a cluster fuck though, as they will likely be NJPs everywhere because issues that will arise. Its a bit more complicated than just a job.
so you want the Congress to either:
a. be more active in getting the economy going?
or
b. do absolutely nothing because they shouldn't do anything that isn't the nation's top priority (the economy) and they shouldn't be more active in getting the economy going?

I'm assuming you don't think the gov't should be more active in the economy... and, per your statement, they should just do nothing because they shouldn't tackle issues that aren't the nation's primary concern? seems like they should just go home then and think about 'stuff'... so you can then complain that the gov't isn't doing enough.
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Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that ”all men are created equal.” We now practically read it “all men are created equal, except negroes” When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read “all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.” When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocricy. - Lincoln
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Unread 2010-12-09, 04:42 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by phreakdna View Post
so you want the Congress to either:
a. be more active in getting the economy going?
or
b. do absolutely nothing because they shouldn't do anything that isn't the nation's top priority (the economy) and they shouldn't be more active in getting the economy going?

I'm assuming you don't think the gov't should be more active in the economy... and, per your statement, they should just do nothing because they shouldn't tackle issues that aren't the nation's primary concern? seems like they should just go home then and think about 'stuff'... so you can then complain that the gov't isn't doing enough.
Making up bullshit. PARTY OF NO.

There are plenty of things they can do to address both without creating more unfunded mandates or poorly thought out regulation.

I honestly think at this point they should go the fuck home. I know there are useful things they CAN do, just WONT do. The market would likely stabilize some from it as most companies (including my own) are just wondering what the fuck is going to happen. Right now no news is good news.
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