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Unread 2014-01-29, 01:17 PM   #51
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do either of you work in 6550?

What floor?
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Unread 2014-03-11, 06:59 PM   #52
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Sprint owner’s promise: Give me T-Mobile and I will deliver a price war




Japanese tech titan SoftBank bought Sprint last year and now it really wants to buy T-Mobile. So much so, in fact, that SoftBank’s President is making an unusual vow: ”It’s a three-heavyweight fight. If I can have a real fight, I go in more massive price war, a technology war.”
Masayoshi Son is making the atypical move of promising to postpone a focus on profit in order to gain market share and deliver price cuts for a very specific reason: U.S. regulators are hesitant to allow the Sprint-T-Mobile merger. T-Mobile has recently delivered clear and substantial price cuts to consumers and AT&T has been forced to follow suit. There is some concern that if Sprint and T-Mobile are combined, the recent trend of price-cutting may sputter out.
T-Mobile is already driving new pricing initiatives in America — why risk a period of stagnation that might follow a merger?
Perhaps because SoftBank has a track record of offering radical, even shocking price innovation in Japan, which used to be utterly dominated by NTT DoCoMo. SoftBank was so aggressive during the arrival of number portability in Japan in 2007 that DoCoMo was forced to literally halve the prices of some of its two-year phone plans. In 2008, SoftBank courted Apple aggressively and brought the iPhone to Japan, helping it extend the market share gains it had started racking up with the help of a contract price war.
SoftBank does have a history of innovative new pricing plans, substantial investment in advanced handset technology and just raw pricing aggression in Japan. It will be interesting to see if this is enough to persuade U.S. regulators to greenlight the Sprint-T-Mobile merger.
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Unread 2014-04-30, 07:00 PM   #53
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Report: Sprint to Make Bid for T-Mobile in June or July







Sources of Bloomberg state that Sprint is getting ready to make a bid for T-Mobile. According to three sources, who wished not to be named due to the privacy of the talks, SoftBank Corp. (who owns about 80% of Sprint), is preparing a case to present to FCC regulators, as well as securing funds for acquiring T-Mobile, with a formal bid to come in June or July.
From what was stated, Sprint would be taking on about $8.6 billion in current debt of T-Mobile’s, plus the reported sticker price of the company which sits currently around $24 billion.
When AT&T attempted to acquire T-Mobile back in 2011, but failed, the company had to pay T-Mobile $6 billion in cash and spectrum, ultimately allowing T-Mobile to become more of a competitor in the US wireless market. This is exactly what SoftBank’s CEO, Masayoshi Son is looking to avoid.
Son’s team is reported as saying that AT&T was unprepared when it made its bid, not able to convince regulators that the acquisition would be a good thing for the US telecommunications industry. Sources state that the company will look to do whatever they can to make sure any type of termination fee is as low as possible, just in case the deal does not go through.
Naturally, no company is currently taking questions about the reported deal, but in the event in which one is made, it would need to go through the boards of SoftBank, Sprint, T-Mobile, and Deutsche Telekom (majority owner of T-Mobile US). With so many people involved, it could take quite a while before we actually know what is to be done or what Sprint has planned.
Let’s imagine this deal goes through and T-Mobile ultimately gets swallowed by Sprint - would you be upset? T-Mobile has been pushing the envelope here in America for customers, fighting a big UNcarrier battle against Verizon and AT&T. It would be kind of sad to possibly see that go away. But again, we don’t know exactly how this will play out.
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Unread 2014-04-30, 07:06 PM   #54
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No nononnononono
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Unread 2014-04-30, 08:37 PM   #55
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What? Make T-Mobile even crappier than it already is? No thanks. I'd started looking heavily at Verizon at that point.
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your just a dumb ass fuck this im done with these dumdasses!.
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Unread 2014-04-30, 08:39 PM   #56
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What? Make T-Mobile even crappier than it already is? No thanks. I'd started looking heavily at Verizon at that point.

T-mobile has made leaps and bounds with their network and doing things different, that's why Sprint wants to buy them but there is still the DOJ hurdle as well as the CDMA/GSM network difference it's Sprint/Nextel 2.0
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Unread 2014-04-30, 08:55 PM   #57
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T-mobile has made leaps and bounds with their network and doing things different, that's why Sprint wants to buy them but there is still the DOJ hurdle as well as the CDMA/GSM network difference it's Sprint/Nextel 2.0
That's true, their coverage is still shoddy though. They've got the majority of the big cities covered with decent 4G LTE speeds, but there tons of places that I don't get service, let alone 3G or 4G. Most of K10 isn't covered which is annoying. I don't get any service in my apartment and don't get service until I get on the highway and even then it's hit or miss.

Lots of places I go to buy phones don't have service or minimal edge service which is annoying. Driving to Colorado is a joke as far as service goes. I have edge or nothing most of the way unless I'm in a good stop off town. I just know that every time I'm like, "Goddamnit, I don't have service again" my girl looks at her Verizon phone and has 3-4 bars of LTE.
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Unread 2014-05-01, 09:15 AM   #58
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do either of you work in 6550?
I used to work in 6550. They moved us all to 6450 last year.
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Unread 2014-05-03, 03:08 AM   #59
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I used to work in 6550. They moved us all to 6450 last year.
I worked in 6550 for years. After they moved us from the South Bunker (SOB).

Hope all is well over there with you guys.
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Unread 2014-05-13, 08:36 AM   #60
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News of a $1 billion breakup fee reportedly tied to Sprint's planned merger with T-Mobile suggests that a deal is indeed in the works.
Sprint wants to merge with T-Mobile, and as early discussions proceed, T-Mobile parent company Deutsche Telekom is insisting that a $1 billion breakup fee be put in the contract, assuring it's well-taken care of for its troubles, should regulators prevent the deal from going through.
The Wall Street Journal reported the news May 9, citing people familiar with the matter—and increasing the likelihood of the rumored deal. Other reports have estimated a time frame for the announcement of June or July.
The same sources told The Journal that the T-Mobile brand and some of its management team would remain after a merger. The report also added that T-Mobile CEO John Legere is seen as a "front-runner" to lead the combined carriers, and that Sprint CEO John Hesse said in an interview last week that it "wouldn't bother him" not to run the new company, and there are "plenty of other things he is still interested in pursuing."
The $1 billion fee is rather modest, compared with the $4 billion fee (plus spectrum) that T-Mobile received when AT&T's 2011 efforts to merge with it failed. The sum may speak to the unsureness of whether such a merger could be pushed through. The report noted that Masayoshi Son, chairman of Softbank, which in July purchased a 78 percent share of Sprint for $21.6 billion, wouldn't do anything "reckless," such as let T-Mobile walk away from a failed deal with billions.

The Journal first reported in December that Sprint was looking into the possibility of buying T-Mobile. The deal was met with something close to an industry-wide groan. "Let's pop this trial balloon quickly, please," blogged John Bermayer, a senior staff attorney with Public Knowledge, a consumer advocacy group.
If the pair were indeed testing the skies, they found them unfriendly. Reports soon followed that Softbank Chairman Masayoshi Son and Sprint's Hesse, taken aback by the negative public reaction, decided to take some time to consider their next step.
Also needed was a plan to sell regulators on the deal. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Chairman Tom Wheeler has commented that he's skeptical such a deal could keep the current amount of industry competition intact, but that he would keep an open mind.
In 2011, AT&T spent 10 months working to gain approval of a proposed merger with T-Mobile. The FCC pushed back, and ultimately the U.S. Department of Justice filed an antitrust lawsuit against AT&T to shut down the deal.
In March, Son engaged in a number of speaking events, seemingly designed to change hearts and minds. Speaking with interviewer Charlie Rose, he suggested that it's silly to suggest that Sprint and T-Mobile were really competing against much larger carriers Verizon Wireless and AT&T, and for there to be "real fight' between "three heavyweights," Sprint and T-Mobile would need to combine.
The same week, Son delivered a speech, before the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, during which he spoke about the personal debt he feels toward America and how he wants to close the digital divide in the United States and make this country a leader in mobile broadband.
"The U.S. has been number one on every infrastructure for the past 100 years ... How can the American people accept the fact that it is number 15 for the most important highway, the information highway, for the next century?" said Son. "I think we have to change this."
T-Mobile's Legere hasn't shied away from the talk of a possible merger. At a Jan. 8 press event, he didn't dismiss the possibility (as even he said he probably should have), but responding as vaguely as he could manage, suggested the T-Mobile brand would override Sprint's.
"The T-Mobile brand is here to stay," said Legere. "How that ultimately plays out [we'll have to see]. But we're a change agent, a maverick ... and I think people think that is very important."
T-Mobile has been enjoying a turnaround, in part thanks to Legere's leadership and the "un-carrier" strategy it introduced in early 2013, but crucially also the rollout of a Long Term Evolution (LTE) network, which was paid for with the nearly $4 billion it received from the failed AT&T deal.
During the first quarter of 2014, Sprint lost 333,000 subscribers, while T-Mobile added more than 1.3 million.
Legere, speaking during T-Mobile's May 1 earnings call, said customers are "having a ball" because they're finally getting a taste of "real competition."
"Would consolidation be a positive for the environment now? Of course," Legere continued. "Would it be a positive in two years from now? It depends upon the players and who they are ... [Right now] we're very pleased with the kinds of competition we're able to put to the big guys. And consolidation is one way that we know we could continue to put it aggressively to them over time."
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Unread 2014-05-30, 07:52 AM   #61
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T-Mobile merger with Sprint inches closer with parent companies agreeing on a sale








A T-Mobile/Sprint merger is one step closer to becoming a reality after reports that Deutsche Telekom has already agreed on a sale to SoftBank. According to Reuters, Deutsche Telekom — which owns a 67% stake in T-Mobile — would be willing to keep a minority stake after selling to SoftBank, but smaller details, like an actual dollar figure, have yet to be worked out.
The biggest hurdle the two companies face isn’t so much coming to an agreement, it’s gaining regulatory approval. Deutsche Telekom has wanted out of the US market for quite sometime, while it’s clear SoftBank is looking to enter it after picking up Sprint for around $21.6 billion back in October of 2012.
But reducing the number of major US carriers from 4 to 3 is a tough pill to swallow, especially after seeing the strides T-Mobile has made in the past year or so. Of course, a lot of that had to do with the large $3 billion dollar break-up fee T-Mobile gained after their failed merger with AT&T (along with AT&T spectrum), but perhaps they have a similar backup plan this time around.
Just about everything is up in the air at the moment, so try not to get too worked up. The public outcry is sure to reach the higher uppers at the FTC, and quite honestly, we can’t imagine a US market without T-Mobile and it’s wacky CEO John Legere stirring up the pot.
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Unread 2014-06-04, 09:56 PM   #62
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Reports indicate Sprint would pay $32 billion for T-Mobile









› ‹
T-Mobile’s aggressive marketing and incentives to switch carriers appear to be reflected in its higher customer numbers.Patrick T. Fallon/Bloomberg


Sprint Corp. reportedly has worked out many of the terms for a $32 billion deal to acquire T-Mobile US Inc., conflicting and unconfirmed accounts said Wednesday.
Reports by Bloomberg News, The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal agreed that the deal would have Overland Park-based Sprint acquire controlling interest in the smaller T-Mobile. They disagreed about some of the details, including the degree to which T-Mobile’s parent company, Germany-based Deutsche Telekom, would remain a stockholder after a merger.
None of the reports identified its sources, citing only individuals with knowledge of the supposed deal.





The companies did not report any news of a deal, and a Sprint spokesman declined to comment.
A Sprint/T-Mobile annoucement likely won’t come until next month. Each company must perform detailed study of each others’ confidential financial and other information, work out a definitive agreement and arrange financing, The New York Times report said.
Sprint has been pushing for a deal that would add to its 54 million subscribers and allow it to more successfully challenge the much larger No. 1 Verizon and No. 2 AT&T. Buying T-Mobile would give Sprint about 92 million subscribers, or nearly as many as AT&T’s 94 million and Verizon’s 115 million, according to totals provided by Macquarie Equities Research.
A combination of the No. 3 and No. 4 U.S. carriers also would allow the companies to cut costs where they would have duplication, such as in retail stores, customer call centers or other areas. In that regard, a merger could have an important job impact in the Kansas City area, where Sprint is one of the largest employers.
According to all three accounts, Sprint would pay about $40 a share for T-Mobile stock. The value would involve a combination of cash and shares of Sprint, which Bloomberg said would be split evenly.
Shares of T-Mobile rose 8 cents Wednesday to close at $34.28. Sprint shares lost 10 cents and closed at $9.40. The reports of a deal came after the stock market had closed.
Deutsche Telekom would end up owning about 15 percent of the combined Sprint/T-Mobile company, according to Bloomberg, but 20 percent according to The New York Times. The Journal said the share is unsettled but between 15 percent and 20 percent.
Deutsche Telekom currently owns 67 percent of T-Mobile.
Sprint is 80 percent owned by Tokyo-based SoftBank Corp., which is the third-largest wireless company in Japan. Its chief executive, Masayoshi Son, who also is Sprint’s chairman, has pushed publicly for a deal to make Sprint a larger rival.
Any proposed deal would face intense review by the Federal Communications Commission and the U.S. Department of Justice. Washington regulators have been open about their preference for keeping the four national carriers in place.
The FCC already has two other large proposals under review. Comcast Corp. and Time Warner Cable Inc. seek a merger and AT&T wants approval to buy satellite television company DirecTV.
“All of a sudden it’s not just a matter of Sprint and T-Mobile, but now it’s several companies whose mergers would transform the entire industry. In this case I think regulators will look at Sprint and T-Mobile in a different light,” industry analyst Jeff Kagan said in an email.
In 2012, Washington blocked AT&T’s $39 billion agreement to buy T-Mobile citing the preference for what it considered a more competitive market. Sprint chief executive Dan Hesse had led a charge against the AT&T deal by saying it would further entrench the “duopoly” control that AT&T and Verizon have on the U.S. wireless market.
AT&T ended up paying T-Mobile a breakup fee negotiated as part of the deal. Sprint, according to the reports, would pay a $1 billion breakup fee if the deal were proposed but uncompleted, which could hamper Sprint financially.
Since the break up of the AT&T deal, T-Mobile has re-energized its business and won millions of new subscribers through aggressive pricing and marketing plans. These have included eliminating 2-year service contracts, selling phones separately from service, faster device upgrade policies and other deals.
Its success, for example adding 2 million subscribers in the first three months of this year, has been cited as justification to keep the four national carriers separate.
This week, however, AT&T told analysts that it has been losing fewer subscribers since the end of March. It suggests that T-Mobile’s gains may be weakening, analyst Adam Ilkowitz at Nomura said in a note to clients on Wednesday.
AT&T has been a favorite target of upstart T-Mobile’s push to lure customers to its network, in part because the companies use similar network technology. Ilkowitz said he expects Verizon also is seeing fewer customer departures, which the industry calls churn.
Less success at T-Mobile, Ilkowitz said, “underlines the rationale” for a deal with Sprint.
The Journal’s report said Sprint and T-Mobile also are considering forming a joint venture that would allow them to combine resources for an upcoming government auction of wireless spectrum.
Rules governing the auction, however, led another analyst Wednesday to say that Washington had fired “a shot across the bow” of the merger idea.
Spectrum are the licensed airwaves that mobile phones, tablets and other devices use to stream video, download apps and perform the other features that make the devices popular. Carriers have said the 600 megahertz spectrum to be auctioned next year is particularly attractive because it carries signals deeper into buildings and further before the signals need to be reinforced by another cell tower.
Here’s where the idea of a merger between Sprint and T-Mobile may have hit a new snag, according to analyst Jennifer Fritzsche at Wells Fargo Securities.
Fritzsche pointed to the FCC’s auction rules. One rule sets aside part of the valued 600 megahertz spectrum and excludes the two biggest carriers from bidding. It essentially means Sprint and T-Mobile would be the top contenders for that reserved spectrum.
Fritzsche then dug out the fine print in paragraph 171 of the rules. The FCC’s auction rules essentially assume there are four national carriers, she said in a note to clients.
“If significant changes in the marketplace structure occur or a proposed transaction is filed with the commission in the future affecting the top four nationwide providers and their spectrum holdings, we will revisit our decisions here regarding the reserved spectrum provisions for the 600 megahertz band that we adopt today,” Friztsche‘s note quoted the rules to say.
In her words: “We believe this language is very purposeful and could signal the FCC’s displeasure with the possibility of a Sprint/T-Mobile merger.”
Fritzsche’s legal sources tell her that the FCC basically has told Sprint and T-Mobile that if they ask to merge they’ll be cut out of the bidding on the reserved spectrum, just as AT&T and Verizon will be cut out.
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Unread 2014-06-05, 11:43 AM   #63
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Don't Believe Sprint's T-Mobile Merger Lies





In the movie Memento, our hero Leonard has a very short memory. Teddy, a friendly cop, promises to help him achieve his goals. But Leonard has a Polaroid of the cop in his pocket, with the chilling legend: DON'T BELIEVE HIS LIES.
As Sprint and T-Mobile reportedly come to a merger agreement, I keep flashing back to Leonard and Teddy. Softbank's Masayoshi Son, who holds a 70 percent stake in Sprint, is the cheerful, helpful guy who's appearing at Americans' elbows promising to lead us to a land of better broadband if we'll just kill a competitor for him. But he's counting on us having a short memory, and little critical thinking.
I've written before about why a Sprint/T-Mobile merger is a bad idea. You should re-read those columns (especially if you're an FCC commissioner.) But I wanted to specifically address some of the themes Son has been on about in the past month or so.
Son's central argument is that home broadband access in the U.S. will soon be dominated by three giant companies: AT&T, Verizon, and KableTimeCast. He's right. That's going to lead to high prices and fewer upgrades, he says. He's also right there. But buying T-Mobile will not help him fix this problem; it will just help him eliminate a competitor.
You Can't Do Home Broadband Over Just Cellular
Sprint is a pure cellular wireless company. So is T-Mobile. Cellular technologies can't deliver the capacity that U.S. home broadband users want. And buying T-Mobile doesn't get Sprint any closer to providing that greater capacity.


A few years ago, AT&T told me that the average American home consumes 21GB of data per month. It's probably more than that now. Sprint has been laying in more capacity with its "Spark" network, but it's been dialing back its home broadband service plans, not expanding them. The company's Clear subsidiary used to offer unlimited home wireless broadband, which Sprint killed when it moved its old WiMAX network over to LTE. With Spark, Sprint doesn't offer any plan larger than 12GB, and that costs $80 per month.
For more on why Son's promises are impossible, read Kevin Fitchard's definitive column, where he lays out how this merger couldn't possibly offer the capacity American homes need.
Rather, as Fitchard says, ground-breaking wireless broadband networks will come via Wi-Fi, white spaces, and other technologies that buying T-Mobile wouldn't provide. If Son is looking to improve home broadband, he's merging with the wrong company.
Softbank offers home broadband in Japan, true. But it's through a wired, land-line connection, not via wireless. If Son wants to shake up the home broadband market in the U.S., he should be buying CenturyLink, other landline providers, WISPs (wireless ISPs) or radical new startups, not T-Mobile.
A Merger Won't Expand Sprint/T-Mobile Coverage
Sprint and T-Mobile's other weakness is in coverage outside major metro areas. As we've seen year after year in our Fastest Mobile Networks studies, Sprint and T-Mobile do well in large cities, but outside those areas, AT&T and Verizon tend to dominate.
The reason is that the smaller carriers, until recently, lacked the low-band spectrum that can cover large distances. T-Mobile recently bought some 700MHz spectrum, and Sprint has been converting its Nextel 800MHz spectrum to help fix the problem.
But merging the two carriers doesn't guarantee better rural coverage and could actually make the situation worse, because the FCC is looking at tilting the upcoming 600MHz auction in 2015 away from AT&T and Verizon in the name of helping smaller players. With a merged Sprint/T-Mobile, there would be no nationwide underdogs, and AT&T and Verizon would have a better chance at using their deep pockets to snap up all that spectrum.
Furthermore, let's remember we've been here before. AT&T swore up and down that it would only be able to cover 80 percent of the country with LTE if it didn't get to buy T-Mobile. After that merger was rejected, somehow AT&T found enough change in the seat cushions to make plans to cover 97 percent of the U.S. population.
Another merger between large wireless carriers will have no positive effects for consumers. It's just going to take us to Canada: a cozy, closed market where three big carriers exist in a comfortable equilibrium.
If Son really wants to disrupt Internet access in the U.S., he could look at buying CenturyLink, Dish, Comcast, or creating the next great white-space ISP right at home in Kansas City. But his insistence on T-Mobile shows that all he really wants to do is to reduce competition. We know where that leads: higher rates and lazier companies that don't have to strive to provide great service.
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Unread 2014-06-08, 03:48 PM   #64
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Sprint and T-Mobile Reportedly Merging as SoftBank USA





There’s a new report out this evening claiming that when the two smaller national carriers merge, that’d be Sprint and T-Mobile, they’d be rebranded to SoftBank USA. Which is something many of us didn’t see coming. We all thought it’d be Sprint or T-Mobile, not an entirely new deal altogether. Well new to the US. Additionally, John Legere will be the CEO of the combined company, SoftBank USA. He is the current CEO of T-Mobile and has led the charge to bringing back T-Mobile into relativity. Dan Hesse, who is the current Sprint CEO would step down, but still be a part of SoftBank’s board of directors. So he’s really not going anywhere.
It’s also being reported that the pre-paid carriers, MetroPCS, Boost Mobile and Virgin Mobile would be combined into one structure. Which would be the Framily plan, which is a bit strange, and I’m guessing that SoftBank USA is getting ready to get rid of the Framily plan, or at least bring it to their prepaid carriers. Although, it’s still unclear what will happen with other MVNO’s like Ting.
Deutsche Telekom, who currently owns T-Mobile USA, is going to keep a 20% stake in the company. Part of the deal is the fact that Deutsche Telekom users will be able to roam on SoftBank’s networks. And SoftBank customers can roam on Deutsche Telekom’s networks in Europe. The deal is supposedly final, and we should see an announcement on Monday to make it official. This comes ahead of T-Mobile’s Uncarrier 5.0 event later this month, it’s still unlikely that it’ll be cancelled, but we’ll have to keep our eyes on it over the next few weeks.
Now it’s important to remember that this deal still needs to be approved by the FCC and Department of Justice. What are everyone’s thoughts on this proposed deal of SoftBank USA? Be sure to let us know in the comments below.
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Unread 2014-06-08, 04:52 PM   #65
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I can't tell if I hate this or don't care.
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Unread 2014-06-08, 06:01 PM   #66
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In for communication reform. Home television and Internet service need work, next.
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Unread 2014-06-08, 08:33 PM   #67
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Hmm....that's interesting.
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Unread 2014-06-08, 09:16 PM   #68
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If they merge does that make my current contract with sprint null and allow me out early?
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Unread 2014-06-09, 07:35 AM   #69
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I can't tell if I hate this or don't care.
I used to hate it... but this is interesting, and not what I expected to happen. It might actually work out for the better.
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Unread 2014-06-09, 07:53 AM   #70
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If they merge does that make my current contract with sprint null and allow me out early?
No.
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Unread 2014-06-17, 08:15 AM   #71
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CNBC: If Sprint and T-Mobile merge, the new company will ditch the name ‘Sprint’






With Sprint continuing to shed subscribers and its brand losing more and more steam with each passing quarter, it looks like owner SoftBank will take advantage of T-Mobile’s momentum in the event that the companies’ much-rumored merger is approved by regulators.
According to a recent report from CNBC, Sprint will finally announce its intention to acquire T-Mobile sometime in July or August. The companies have apparently agreed on a massive $2 billion break-up fee that will be paid to T-Mobile if the deal doesn’t go through, and Deutsche Telekom will retain some ownership of the merged company if the deal is approved.
Interestingly, CNBC reports that the merged entity will lose the “Sprint” brand and instead use the T-Mobile name moving forward. The move would be quite atypical considering Sprint is acquiring T-Mobile, but there is no question that the Sprint brand is suffering right now while T-Mobile is thriving.
“Something I’ve talked about so many times and something we’re fairly certain of is going to come to pass which is if, in fact, this deal does get announced, the plan is that T-Mobile would be the brand they go with,” David Faber reported. “And John Ledger’s management team would be in charge.”
According to earlier reports, the deal will be worth around $32 billion.
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Unread 2014-06-17, 08:58 AM   #72
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Sounds like Sprint will be getting the short end of the stick here. Losing its management team, its brand... what's next, the campus?
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Unread 2014-06-17, 08:59 AM   #73
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Sounds like Sprint will be getting the short end of the stick here. Losing its management team, its brand... what's next, the campus?
Nah they rent most of it out to other companies for office space.
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Unread 2014-06-17, 09:12 AM   #74
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SoftBank Cup?

What's going to happen with the whole Nascar thing?
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Unread 2014-06-17, 09:15 AM   #75
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SoftBank Cup?

What's going to happen with the whole Nascar thing?

They would just re-brand ...again
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