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Unread 2013-10-17, 02:34 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by ItalionStallion888 View Post
Well, when you are not a fan of it. It can seem that way. Take for instance, the wife and I went to old Settlers in olathe in Sept. We were walking around the booth area checking out tables. I was handed "christian propaganda" 10 times. I saw so many of the hand outs on the ground. Way to waste paper, litter and push your church onto people just walking around. You can have your church, attend and do whatever you want. Instead of worrying about trying to get as many people to come to your service as possible, why not concentrate on your faith and your own members?
I totally get that. Sometimes its very intrusive with hardcore Christians. However its Christians duty to try and spread the word of god to anyone who will listen,(and even those who don't). Christians are stereotyped greatly,and 75% of them are just like the next guy. Normal people,who love there families,work,and enjoy life without to much thought of repercussions,because Christians understand that when your in the flesh sin is inevitable. We don't use,"being able to ask for forgiveness", as a way to do what we want,but we understand we owe god an apology for things no matter if we purposely sinned and know it,or sinned "unwillingly"because that's part of living in the flesh. Its a give and take that's excepted on both sides,and asking for forgiveness is still no guarantee into heaven.
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Unread 2013-10-17, 04:50 PM   #177
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I would say that's b/c most people are use to having god pushed on them by christians, that's the stereotype they get. Having groups like Westboro doesn't help much either.

The Christians I know put allot of space between them and those people. We would never protest at a funeral instead we would say a prayer.

I dont push my beliefs on anyone. You are free to believe or not.
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Unread 2013-10-17, 04:58 PM   #178
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The Christians I know put allot of space between them and those people. We would never protest at a funeral instead we would say a prayer.

I dont push my beliefs on anyone. You are free to believe or not.
Everybody knows those yahoos at westboro are a bunch of fake Christian followers. They are truly brainwashed. Fame whoring is there only purpose. Not to spread the true message of god. I can't even talk about them without speaking in hatred for them,witch isnt generally in my nature,so ill just leave it at that.
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Unread 2013-10-17, 05:47 PM   #179
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Everybody knows those yahoos at westboro are a bunch of fake Christian followers. They are truly brainwashed. Fame whoring is there only purpose. Not to spread the true message of god. I can't even talk about them without speaking in hatred for them,witch isnt generally in my nature,so ill just leave it at that.
Who are you to say that?

How do YOU know that isnt the true message of god? They believe they are following it to the letter of "His" word. Just as extremist muslims believe they are following Allah's way exactly to the letter.

Look at "Christians" in the middle ages and during the Crusades. According your post, they would be fake followers too and "yahoos". They were spreading the "word of god" in the way they believed to be right. By the sword.....

This is a perfect example to counter your post about morals. As societal changes occur, so do religious "morals".
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Unread 2013-10-17, 05:49 PM   #180
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I've been waiting for someone to bring up the crusades.
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Unread 2013-10-17, 06:02 PM   #181
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I've been waiting for someone to bring up the crusades.
Or the old testament in general and taken literally like it used to be.....

But those people would be "fake" according to torqueburner.
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Unread 2013-10-17, 07:00 PM   #182
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Who are you to say that?

How do YOU know that isnt the true message of god? They believe they are following it to the letter of "His" word. Just as extremist muslims believe they are following Allah's way exactly to the letter.

Look at "Christians" in the middle ages and during the Crusades. According your post, they would be fake followers too and "yahoos". They were spreading the "word of god" in the way they believed to be right. By the sword.....

This is a perfect example to counter your post about morals. As societal changes occur, so do religious "morals".
Not that I agree with his feelings toward that group, but...

They are not following the bible to the letter. The principle quality of God and a christaian is love. Running around proclaiming hate(in gods name no less) discredits them as Christians. I've never heard them say anything that is in line with bible principles. Same goes for the crusades.
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Unread 2013-10-17, 07:59 PM   #183
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Or the old testament in general and taken literally like it used to be.....

But those people would be "fake" according to torqueburner.
,I can tell your knowledge of the old testament to the new testament is not understood very well, and I mean that in a respectful manner
And as for the westboro comments,your rationality towards anything religious is starting to become very apparent with that thought/comment so this wouldnt be conducive to neither of us to further elaborate.
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Unread 2013-10-17, 08:44 PM   #184
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Not that I agree with his feelings toward that group, but...

They are not following the bible to the letter. The principle quality of God and a christaian is love. Running around proclaiming hate(in gods name no less) discredits them as Christians. I've never heard them say anything that is in line with bible principles. Same goes for the crusades.
This really goes without saying. I'm really taken back by his analogy. To use westboro in any type of (productive),thought provoking conversation seems odd to me,believer or not.
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Unread 2013-10-22, 09:43 AM   #185
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I believe and practice spirtuality.. organized religion is another corrupt bureaucracy. i do not take the bible as literal history, even though there are some historical facts that can be proven from the stories. now a days people are taking the stories out of context because of their non-literal and anecdotal meaning.. the themes and ideas are valuable however, such as compassion, love, forgiveness, hope, introspection, acceptance of others, and the idea that there is a higher force of nature that dictates our being..

with that being said, I go to a private Jesuit College and recently went through RCIA to be confirmed in the Catholic Church.. i enjoy the spiritual aspect of it
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Unread 2013-10-22, 02:29 PM   #186
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http://www.isidewith.com/poll/965584
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Unread 2013-10-22, 04:26 PM   #187
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"Everything you read on the internet is true", where'd you hear that?....... "On the internet". Lol,j/k
Its no hidden statistic that the majority of the world believes in some form of religion/god,and not evolution. Does that mean were right and your wrong? No it doesn't. However the fact remains that the majority of the world are people of spiritual faith. Thank you for joining back in,didn't mean to offend you in any earlier threads
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Unread 2013-10-22, 07:05 PM   #188
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This entire thread is amazing, there's a lot of good information that can be taken in to help someone make their mind up. I really don't know whats going to happen after i'm dead, I would like to believe there is a afterlife or some sort of higher power. But I have a hard time believing information from the bible, as a lot of it has been proven wrong(I mainly think of the age of the planet). Evolution seems more logical, but still has loop holes. The thought of god making everything seems unrealistic. It doesn't hurt to keep an open mind and still consider its possible, but it just seems unlikely.
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Unread 2013-10-23, 09:52 AM   #189
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There are many variations of religion. Different interpretations, etc. It all comes down to a "higher power". A God. I am NOT a church goer. I have not brought my children into a church for the purposes of listening to sermons. Both my daughters voluntarily went to a church organized youth group in Gardner. In my opinion, it helped reinforce my teachings of being kind, generous, and helpful. To make good decisions, and not those that lead to self destructive behavior. I am proud of them. Religion itself had nothing to do with their successful upbringing. But there are plenty of good things that CAN be learned from Bible.
I have said it before here, and will throw it in again. The Bible is a compilation of books written a loooonggg time ago. Many things are not applicable today. Many things still are. Real or not, its each individuals choice to choose its authenticity. There are many different interpretations of what hidden meanings are in there. One thing that, IMO, cannot be interpreted in any other way but literally, is the Mark of the Beast.
More specifically:
Revelation 13:15-18:
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
If this happens, one cannot discount the overall validity of the Bible and what it says. After all, this is something that was put together how many years ago? How could they have possibly perceived this kind of capability? Sure, it does not say HOW this is accomplished. But surely, any smart person that has not been living under a rock can see it is electronically possible to accomplish. The capabilities are here TODAY. RFID's. GPS. The computing power needed to accomplish it is already in place. If NSA can store as much data and retrieve it at will, as has been said in recent months, surely something like this is easily doable. The question then becomes, what is the catalyst used to make the entire world believe that it is for their own good? Could it happen within the next 40 years? I don't see why not. I have seen a significant change in our society in the last 40 years. No reason to believe it wont change significantly more in the next 40.

And to be clear...again. I am not a church goer, and do not claim any denominational faith. This is pure logic to me. Anyone can discount predictions that haven't happened. But if a prediction like this does happen, what do you believe your thoughts to be then?
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Unread 2013-10-23, 09:58 AM   #190
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There are many variations of religion. Different interpretations, etc. It all comes down to a "higher power". A God. I am NOT a church goer. I have not brought my children into a church for the purposes of listening to sermons. Both my daughters voluntarily went to a church organized youth group in Gardner. In my opinion, it helped reinforce my teachings of being kind, generous, and helpful. To make good decisions, and not those that lead to self destructive behavior. I am proud of them. Religion itself had nothing to do with their successful upbringing. But there are plenty of good things that CAN be learned from Bible.
I have said it before here, and will throw it in again. The Bible is a compilation of books written a loooonggg time ago. Many things are not applicable today. Many things still are. Real or not, its each individuals choice to choose its authenticity. There are many different interpretations of what hidden meanings are in there. One thing that, IMO, cannot be interpreted in any other way but literally, is the Mark of the Beast.
More specifically:
Revelation 13:15-18:
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
If this happens, one cannot discount the overall validity of the Bible and what it says. After all, this is something that was put together how many years ago? How could they have possibly perceived this kind of capability? Sure, it does not say HOW this is accomplished. But surely, any smart person that has not been living under a rock can see it is electronically possible to accomplish. The capabilities are here TODAY. RFID's. GPS. The computing power needed to accomplish it is already in place. If NSA can store as much data and retrieve it at will, as has been said in recent months, surely something like this is easily doable. The question then becomes, what is the catalyst used to make the entire world believe that it is for their own good? Could it happen within the next 40 years? I don't see why not. I have seen a significant change in our society in the last 40 years. No reason to believe it wont change significantly more in the next 40.

And to be clear...again. I am not a church goer, and do not claim any denominational faith. This is pure logic to me. Anyone can discount predictions that haven't happened. But if a prediction like this does happen, what do you believe your thoughts to be then?
Well said and thought out. You just reinforced what I been trying to say through out this thread. Forget science for just a second,and use your own LOGIC to make a decision,instead of using science to think for you.
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Unread 2013-10-23, 06:40 PM   #191
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Let me preface this post by saying that I was raised in church. Literally my entire family are ministers or have been at one time. That said, I have not been a born again Christian until just recently. All of my teenage and adult life has been nothing but the pursuit of personal gratification. I denounced God at a very young age when my father (an assemblies of God pastor) changed my family's life forever through some very selfish and hateful behavior. He was subsequently barred from ministering in that organization ever again. I will not divulge any details, but it destroyed my family and ended in utter disgrace for him. About that time, I started to have real anger towards a God that would let something like that happen. As I continued to grow into my teenage years it became easier to disassociate from God. I always felt a tugging on my heart, but always just attributed it to my moral upbringing. I have broken more laws, done more drugs, and have sunken farther into darkness than just about anyone I've ever known. Believe me, as a former drug addict, I've known and associated with the bottom of the societal barrel. I should have been dead, or incarcerated hundreds of times over, but I've had a praying, God-fearing family that never stopped praying diligently for me. I always said I was just lucky in my debauchery. My grandfather, the smartest man I know (holds multiple PhDs), told me recently that I wasn't lucky. I was favored. I had always tried to refute God in a physical sense. I've studied so many different religions, that it'd make your head spin. I just recently had an experience that was so visceral that I just couldn't deny God's presence. Since then, I've prayed to be released from the bondage of my depression, guilt, and feelings of self-loathing. I've been stripped of these things. I tried for years to rid myself of these internal demons to no avail. Through God, I am free. I believe God has a plan for everyone. The trick is to allow him to bring it to fruition in your life.
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Unread 2013-10-23, 07:47 PM   #192
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Let me preface this post by saying that I was raised in church. Literally my entire family are ministers or have been at one time. That said, I have not been a born again Christian until just recently. All of my teenage and adult life has been nothing but the pursuit of personal gratification. I denounced God at a very young age when my father (an assemblies of God pastor) changed my family's life forever through some very selfish and hateful behavior. He was subsequently barred from ministering in that organization ever again. I will not divulge any details, but it destroyed my family and ended in utter disgrace for him. About that time, I started to have real anger towards a God that would let something like that happen. As I continued to grow into my teenage years it became easier to disassociate from God. I always felt a tugging on my heart, but always just attributed it to my moral upbringing. I have broken more laws, done more drugs, and have sunken farther into darkness than just about anyone I've ever known. Believe me, as a former drug addict, I've known and associated with the bottom of the societal barrel. I should have been dead, or incarcerated hundreds of times over, but I've had a praying, God-fearing family that never stopped praying diligently for me. I always said I was just lucky in my debauchery. My grandfather, the smartest man I know (holds multiple PhDs), told me recently that I wasn't lucky. I was favored. I had always tried to refute God in a physical sense. I've studied so many different religions, that it'd make your head spin. I just recently had an experience that was so visceral that I just couldn't deny God's presence. Since then, I've prayed to be released from the bondage of my depression, guilt, and feelings of self-loathing. I've been stripped of these things. I tried for years to rid myself of these internal demons to no avail. Through God, I am free. I believe God has a plan for everyone. The trick is to allow him to bring it to fruition in your life.
Wow,that was quite powerful. And one can only understand what I mean by powerful,if they themselves have been touched by the hand of god.......others will think I'm talking about a literal hand coming out of the sky and touching you,lol,j/k...
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Unread 2013-10-23, 11:54 PM   #193
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There are many variations of religion. Different interpretations, etc. It all comes down to a "higher power". A God. I am NOT a church goer. I have not brought my children into a church for the purposes of listening to sermons. Both my daughters voluntarily went to a church organized youth group in Gardner. In my opinion, it helped reinforce my teachings of being kind, generous, and helpful. To make good decisions, and not those that lead to self destructive behavior. I am proud of them. Religion itself had nothing to do with their successful upbringing. But there are plenty of good things that CAN be learned from Bible.
I have said it before here, and will throw it in again. The Bible is a compilation of books written a loooonggg time ago. Many things are not applicable today. Many things still are. Real or not, its each individuals choice to choose its authenticity. There are many different interpretations of what hidden meanings are in there. One thing that, IMO, cannot be interpreted in any other way but literally, is the Mark of the Beast.
More specifically:
Revelation 13:15-18:
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
If this happens, one cannot discount the overall validity of the Bible and what it says. After all, this is something that was put together how many years ago? How could they have possibly perceived this kind of capability? Sure, it does not say HOW this is accomplished. But surely, any smart person that has not been living under a rock can see it is electronically possible to accomplish. The capabilities are here TODAY. RFID's. GPS. The computing power needed to accomplish it is already in place. If NSA can store as much data and retrieve it at will, as has been said in recent months, surely something like this is easily doable. The question then becomes, what is the catalyst used to make the entire world believe that it is for their own good? Could it happen within the next 40 years? I don't see why not. I have seen a significant change in our society in the last 40 years. No reason to believe it wont change significantly more in the next 40.

And to be clear...again. I am not a church goer, and do not claim any denominational faith. This is pure logic to me. Anyone can discount predictions that haven't happened. But if a prediction like this does happen, what do you believe your thoughts to be then?
Great post, and much respect for taking the time and effort to personally instruct your kids, I'm sure they will make you proud.

Now, the comment on the wild beast. You don't come out and say it, but I'm assuming that you are referring to human government in respects to who the beast is. If so, you're dead on. The beast in revelation is referred to as the combined four beasts described in the vision in Daniel, which were four world powers that ruled in succession of each other. Since the beast in revaluation is the combined beasts of Daniel, it is not referring to a specific government of man, but rather the abstract of all human government that opposes God.

Next, the mark of the beast. In the bible, the number 7 is often used as a godly number, or a number that represents perfection/completeness. Respectively, 6 falls short of seven and is used to describe imperfection or being defective, it is a number that describes imperfect man. The bible often uses immediate repetition to add emphasis or stress a point, so the fact that the beasts mark is 666 is meant to stress that the beast is human in nature and origin in the sense that it falls extremely short of perfection in Gods eyes. Thinking about this another way, the beast is mans kingdom which rejects Gods. God has a kingdom/government of heavenly origin, and his followers are 'no part of the world'. Since followers of Gods kingdom are no part of the world, they are not accepted by mans kingdom.

The location of the mark of the beast is extremely significant. Being on the hands represents the actions or work of a person being in harmony with the beast and it's interests(ungodly). The mark on the forehead represents that the persons thoughts are in line with the beasts rather than with gods. By what people say and do, it is easy tell if a person is dedicated to serving God or man. Especially as times become more difficult, the beast(most human government) will, on a global scale, reject and persecute those who don't fall in line with its thinking and activities and choose to serve God. They will not even do business with them.

Therefore, the sign you would be looking for that indicates that everything is about to hit the fan is this, look for when the wild beast attacks false religion(Babylon the great). The government is going to target and attack false religion. The last religion/groups to be attacked by the government will be Gods favored people, those who genuinely worked to seek and serve him whole-souled.
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Unread 2013-10-24, 09:52 AM   #194
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Not quite what I was getting at, but you made me think about this from a different perspective. My intent was to make those that totally scoff at the idea of religion and the bible its based on, to stop and think about it its validity if something in it can be directly linked to current events. Most of what is in the bible is open to different interpretations. But this one event, to me, seems to be not so vague. Now you have spun it a little bit differently by saying the government would attack religion. Not upset or anything whatsoever. Just a different spin on what I saw as being black and white.

It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark.

Unable to buy and sell, to me, means whatever form of currency is to be used. Credit cards are the closest thing we have today to this scenario. Many people, even youngsters on here, are setting cash aside in favor of plastic. Every CC transaction is stored for future reference. My thoughts of the catalyst for this event to happen is using what we know of today and applying it to the future. IE: Lets say the WTO, or a "World Bank" of some sort somehow becomes a central currency supplier. ( the idea of a world bank is not so far out in left field. The IMF is a global monetary organization. Its current purpose, like anything else, can change) There is a lot of economical unrest right now that could be contributing factors. What would be the reasons for countries to give up this sovereignty. Currency in its current state, is a big part of any countries individuality. So what would be the events(s) that could change this? Terrorism? Identity theft? Drug crackdown? Financial meltdown? It has to be SOMETHING that is perceived as evil and that it could only be eliminated in such a manner. The mentality of the people would have to be, "well, I'm not doing anything illegal, so why should I care if I use this 'currency'". Does that thought sound familiar?

Now, if this prediction comes about as a result of religious persecutions, and people are forced to comply with a particular religion in order to receive this "mark", then that's a different thing entirely from where I was going with my thoughts. This idea is not as literal in its form in which I was interpreting that part of the verse. That in itself lends to the confusion of "interpretations" that I referred to in the first part of my post. The idea of who or what "the beast" is, is less important for my purpose of causing others to rethink the possible validity of the bible as a whole if that one line comes true.
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Unread 2013-10-24, 10:58 AM   #195
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I guess you could say I'm agnostic. I went through confirmation in the Catholic church and was hugely into my youth group etc in high school, but now I can't stand organized religion. I see it as a bunch of man-made bullshit that gets in the way of the belief in a higher being or whatever you want to call it.

I find beauty in just about everything I see, even more so now that I'm a photographer, and I find it extremely hard to believe that that just happened without someone or something looking out for the universe and making it beautiful.

As for science and physics and such, I see that as God creating a set of initial rules that the universe has to follow and letting everything spin according to those rules. He (or She or It) even put in some easter eggs for us to find and to keep us thinking critically. The Higgs-Bosun Particle or dark matter come to mind. The universe could be trillions of years old, or some supreme being could have created it 2 minutes ago and planted all the evidence to the contrary.

As for praying that something specific will happen, some pretty strange things have happened that have little explanation, but I don't think whoever is up there gives a shit about how a sports team does or how you do on a test if you aren't prepared for it.

Also, Eddie Griffin has a pretty damn good quote.
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“The Christians say Jesus is the messenger. The Muslims say it’s Muhammad. I say who gives a f*ck who the messenger is, did you get the message?”
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Unread 2013-10-24, 12:09 PM   #196
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I find beauty in just about everything I see, even more so now that I'm a photographer, and I find it extremely hard to believe that that just happened without someone or something looking out for the universe and making it beautiful.
Agree 100%

Sometimes it is frustrating to see all the beauty in the world and knowing that no matter how hard I try, how much I learn, or how expensive my camera is, I'm never going to really do justice to a scene when compared to seeing it with the naked eye.
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Unread 2013-10-24, 12:33 PM   #197
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Agree 100%

Sometimes it is frustrating to see all the beauty in the world and knowing that no matter how hard I try, how much I learn, or how expensive my camera is, I'm never going to really do justice to a scene when compared to seeing it with the naked eye.
I also agree. And as I said in my earlier post,science,physics,elements,laws,etc, all where put here from a higher power,so that we can understand the world around us,not necessarly understand how it began.
And In the "end times" the bible states that all nations will be able to hear this "ant-Christ" speak at one time. Not possible then. Now with CNN the media,anybody can speak on tv while the whole world listens at on time. If the old temple is torn down and a new one rebuilt,then its time to worry.
This anti-Christ will also be a great leader of the nation's,and fool many people.
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Unread 2018-11-09, 10:15 AM   #198
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Hey TQburner, I feel this thread is appropriate to carry on that conversation so it doesn't muck up the midterms thread and Obliques thread "god/truth" is cluttered with his mass of crazy.


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I highly disagree. If you give me just a little bit of your time in the other thread, I'll tell you why. I promise it's not some bs plea or preaching to get you to believe. That's not my intention at all. I'll give you science based facts that infer a creator without resorting to the bible. Btw, I'm not a creationist or a intelligent design theorist, so no worries there.

Proceed to make your case good sir.
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Unread 2018-11-09, 01:35 PM   #199
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Hey TQburner, I feel this thread is appropriate to carry on that conversation so it doesn't muck up the midterms thread and Obliques thread "god/truth" is cluttered with his mass of crazy.


Proceed to make your case good sir.
I guess the best place to start would be the beginning. It's a fact that the universe had a finite beginning. That would infer that "something" created it.
Whatever begins to exist has a cause. I think that's a scientific fact we could both agree on.

Maybe we can start off with this premise, and expand from there.
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