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Unread 2017-10-06, 10:36 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by jwdb1fish View Post
Wrong.

You are assuming why I'm offended.

I support racial equality. I don't support disrespecting our flag.

You don't get to tell me what their protest tanks for in my eyes, so your position is off base.
You think kneeling to the flag is disrespecting it?
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Unread 2017-10-06, 10:41 AM   #27
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You think kneeling to the flag is disrespecting it?

That and the people that died for them to have that right.


This whole mess was born in the aftermath of citizens ignoring the lawful orders of police officers, and then trying to blame the results of those actions on good men in our police force.

Once again, I'm not suggesting they have no point. There are plenty of racist pieces of shit out there, but blaming police as a whole and disrespecting the flag is ridiculous.

But the reality is that people of color are equally racist as well in certain circles. They are equally to blame in many ways.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 10:46 AM   #28
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That and the people that died for them to have that right.


This whole mess was born in the aftermath of citizens ignoring the lawful orders of police officers, and then trying to blame the results of those actions on good men in our police force.

Once again, I'm not suggesting they have no point. There are plenty of racist pieces of shit out there, but blaming police as a whole and disrespecting the flag is ridiculous.

But the reality is that people of color are equally racist as well in certain circles. They are equally to blame in many ways.
So they're disrespecting the flag but exercising the right that people believed was so important to have they died fighting for? How does that make any fucking sense? If anything they're honoring those that died fighting for them to have that right...
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Unread 2017-10-06, 10:50 AM   #29
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So they're disrespecting the flag but exercising the right that people believed was so important to have they died fighting for? How does that make any fucking sense? If anything they're honoring those that died fighting for them to have that right...
Ok.


So can I exercise my freedom of speech, say something that's deemed offensive, and then just use your logic there to deflect and say they shouldn't be offended because it's my right to have a freedom of speech?

I guess I'll just go tell someone off today and feel good about it since I'm honoring those that died for my right to do so.

Are you feeling ok, dude?
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Unread 2017-10-06, 10:50 AM   #30
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Ok.


So can I exercise my freedom of speech, say something that's deemed offensive, and then just use your logic there to deflect and say they shouldn't be offended because it's my right to have a freedom of speech?

I guess I'll just go tell someone off today and feel good about it since I'm honoring those that died for my right to do so.

Are you feeling ok, dude?
I mean, ya. Unless it's the police trying to arrest you for said offensive speech, I would say that is true. Of course, that doesn't protect you from backlash from the general public for saying that offensive thing... the first amendment doesn't protect you from that.


Does it make you mad when they carry a huge flag onto the field? Or have an american flag on their football jerseys or work it into their uniforms (like the Patriots, Panthers, etc have done)?

I've never heard you speak out about that before, just curious.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 10:53 AM   #31
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I have noticed it's a lot of people that don't serve and have never served that hold the opinions for those who did.

Obviously I didn't serve, which is why I'm not, you know, generalizing an entire group from different walks of life and acting like I know what they all think about this matter. Most of my military friends (read, MY military friends, not speaking on everybody who has served's behalf) are in support of the protest as they fought for the freedom to do so.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 10:58 AM   #32
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Kneeling during the anthem isn’t disrespecting a fucking thing. That logic is coming from the same trash fucks flying the confederate flag saying it’s their right to. Fucking lol
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:00 AM   #33
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Also, if it upsets you so much, why aren’t you protesting the people wearing the flag on their shorts, sandals and beach towels?
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:03 AM   #34
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Does it make you mad when they carry a huge flag onto the field? Or have an american flag on their football jerseys or work it into their uniforms (like the Patriots, Panthers, etc have done)?

I've never heard you speak out about that before, just curious.
he also refuses to allow any advertising using the American flag to be put up in any bar he's ever managed, won't currently accept shipments of Budweiser with the image of the American flag printed on the boxes and the bottles...

he's a HUGE proponent of ß176

he's also very perplexed why everyone that goes to their various churches is so disrespectful of the God(s) they claim to believe in... why everyone that's lived in a monarchy and had the pleasure of meeting their monarch has been so disrespectful...


I'm sorry but this whole thing is just a bunch of made up bullshit to try to distract and divide people. kneeling is an act of honoring and contrition - it literally puts the person in a subservient position that until someone playing a sport did it, was a universal symbol of reverence and obedience.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:05 AM   #35
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I have noticed it's a lot of people that don't serve and have never served that hold the opinions for those who did.

Obviously I didn't serve, which is why I'm not, you know, generalizing an entire group from different walks of life and acting like I know what they all think about this matter. Most of my military friends (read, MY military friends, not speaking on everybody who has served's behalf) are in support of the protest as they fought for the freedom to do so.
I'm Snapchat friends with like... at least 3 people that have served. I am fully qualified to speak on behalf of their opinions.

Well, two and a half. I'm not sure if Karlen fully counts because he's such a snowflake.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:07 AM   #36
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I'm not sure if Karlen fully counts because he's such a snowflake.
winter is coming.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:12 AM   #37
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Also, if it upsets you so much, why aren’t you protesting the people wearing the flag on their shorts, sandals and beach towels?
I keep seeing this argument from all over FB etc.. What does the actual US Flag code say about it? People keep bringing it up, someone tosses up a "clip" of the code and then it dies.

I guess I should go read word for word to wrap my head around it more.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:19 AM   #38
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I keep seeing this argument from all over FB etc.. What does the actual US Flag code say about it? People keep bringing it up, someone tosses up a "clip" of the code and then it dies.

I guess I should go read word for word to wrap my head around it more.
The flag code has nothing to do with this argument. You canít force anyone to respect the flag, this is all about how people feel about the flag.

Not to mention the last I read, the flag code isnít enforceable.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:21 AM   #39
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I'm Snapchat friends with like... at least 3 people that have served. I am fully qualified to speak on behalf of their opinions.

Well, two and a half. I'm not sure if Karlen fully counts because he's such a snowflake.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:28 AM   #40
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I keep seeing this argument from all over FB etc.. What does the actual US Flag code say about it? People keep bringing it up, someone tosses up a "clip" of the code and then it dies.

I guess I should go read word for word to wrap my head around it more.
http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html
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ß176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
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The flag code has nothing to do with this argument. You canít force anyone to respect the flag, this is all about how people feel about the flag.

Not to mention the last I read, the flag code isnít enforceable.
correct the flag code is law but the penalty is not/has not been enforced. I do think its somewhat relevant as it is the actual, codified law of what 'respect for the flag' means...
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Unread 2017-10-06, 11:30 AM   #41
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Thanks, like I said I had seen a blurb about it.. got ADD and went about my day but it keeps popping up
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Unread 2017-10-06, 01:41 PM   #42
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I, too, believe it is a bunch of made up BS. While kneeling was always considered a sign of respect, that is not the case for this whole mess of ugly. Kapernick, being the lone idiot to start this, used kneeling, instead of sitting, to show his feelings about the racial divide in this country. Others started following suit.

IMO, the National Anthem and how the US Flag is portrayed alongside it during pregame festivities, is to show respect for those that have fallen to allow the freedoms we now have. What people seem to have a hard time accepting is the view that not standing for the Anthem and/or respecting what the flag stands for, is looked at as disrespecting all those who have come before us. This whole thing has snowballed way beyond the original intent. And to me, it skews the protest in the wrong direction. If they want to make a difference, then get out there in the 'hoods and start making progress with the youth to make good decisions. To create dreams and set the goals to make those dreams possible. But instead, it has come across as ' it's whitey's fault'. That somehow, a man of color will never make it into the White House. Oh...wait.

Having done my time in the military, I wouldn't mind reaching out and bitch slapping the "idiots" that don't stand and show the respect our history deserves. Have there been flaws in our country's history? Absolutely. All the good, all the bad, have put the US where it is today. The strongest country in the world. Do MLK proud and start actually doing something to change it, instead of crying about it and blaming someone else.

We have had a black POTUS. So there are no more excuses about being held down. Stereotypes do exist, and racial tensions flare on those stereotypes. However, if you are going to act like the stereotype.....well..... you are perpetuating the problem. You can do the same thing over and over all you want. Just don't expect a different outcome anytime soon.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 02:01 PM   #43
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Actually, Kaepernick started by sitting, but a Green Beret discussed it with him and told him that it would be more respectful to kneel, rather than sit. That is why he started kneeling; out of respect.

http://www.snopes.com/veteran-kaeper...a-knee-anthem/



You can only make so much of a difference from the bottom up. There is a HUGE problem with institutional racism in this country that can't be solved by speaking with the youths in the 'hoods.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 02:24 PM   #44
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I, too, believe it is a bunch of made up BS. While kneeling was always considered a sign of respect, that is not the case for this whole mess of ugly. Kapernick, being the lone idiot to start this, used kneeling, instead of sitting, to show his feelings about the racial divide in this country. Others started following suit.

IMO, the National Anthem and how the US Flag is portrayed alongside it during pregame festivities, is to show respect for those that have fallen to allow the freedoms we now have. What people seem to have a hard time accepting is the view that not standing for the Anthem and/or respecting what the flag stands for, is looked at as disrespecting all those who have come before us. This whole thing has snowballed way beyond the original intent. And to me, it skews the protest in the wrong direction. If they want to make a difference, then get out there in the 'hoods and start making progress with the youth to make good decisions. To create dreams and set the goals to make those dreams possible. But instead, it has come across as ' it's whitey's fault'. That somehow, a man of color will never make it into the White House. Oh...wait.

Having done my time in the military, I wouldn't mind reaching out and bitch slapping the "idiots" that don't stand and show the respect our history deserves. Have there been flaws in our country's history? Absolutely. All the good, all the bad, have put the US where it is today. The strongest country in the world. Do MLK proud and start actually doing something to change it, instead of crying about it and blaming someone else.

We have had a black POTUS. So there are no more excuses about being held down. Stereotypes do exist, and racial tensions flare on those stereotypes. However, if you are going to act like the stereotype.....well..... you are perpetuating the problem. You can do the same thing over and over all you want. Just don't expect a different outcome anytime soon.
NFL didn't do anything about the teams and the anthem until the DoD paid for it in 2009.

But you already knew that, since you're clearly up to speed on the subject.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 03:36 PM   #45
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just some quick notes on the anthem that is being so 'disrespected':
- it was written by a slave-owning, anti-abolitionist that advocated for sending black people back to Africa as a solution and who openly thought that blacks were an inferior race of people (not uncommon but like Robert E Lee, when his only real contribution was being a racist asshole, its harder to celebrate him)
- but more than focusing on the man, a seemingly relevant fact is that the third verse isn't sung in part because its about celebrating a victory over freed slaves
- the Star Spangled Banner wasn't confirmed as the National Anthem until 1931 after Woodrow Wilson declared it so in 1916 in large part to help out the career of his daughter who had just done a rendition of it to make money.


and for all of the military symbolism that people want to place on the flag and the national anthem, they represent far more than our military, our fallen heroes and our first responders... the flag and the national anthem represent all of us - the best and the worst of us - and the idea that to criticize any part of our nation as part of an effort to challenge it to be better as disrespecting all of it, seems to miss the fact that one of the best things we've done as a nation is strive to get better. to do things the right way and to sacrifice for the greater good. other nations do the same thing but we've historically been better at it which is why we're at the top of the heap. people that have served have my undying gratitude for being willing to do something I wasn't but that doesn't mean they get to take the symbolism of the flag in its entirety. that isn't the bargain that we as a nation make when they serve(d). the flag is far more than that and it kind of pisses me off that people want to reduce it to that.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 03:56 PM   #46
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TIL Robert E Lee was only significant because he was a racist.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 04:22 PM   #47
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TIL Robert E Lee was only significant because he was a racist.
please, without googling, tell me the other very important things that he did.

I'll even help you:
- what battles did he influence as an assistant during the Mexican American war?
- what two states did he help define the boundary between as a surveyor?
- what "uprising" of 22 people did he put down when he showed up after the troops he was supposed to be commanding already had them surrounded before he got there?
- what lasting legacy did he leave during his three years as Superintendant of West Point?

one more hint... you don't fucking know because none of that shit was important except for John Brown and he showed up after they'd been pinned down. the rest of it, he was simply a competent military man who wasn't exceedingly remarkable or influential... his singular major contribution to history was to commit treason in support of a group of racists. there's evidence that he didn't support the Confederacy but rather did it out of duty. yet given who he was being dutiful to and the explicit ends of that group? he's a treasonous, racist piece of shit because unless you were in his circle of family and friends? that's all he did that was meaningful.

but hey, solid trolling to see if you could derail the thread
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Unread 2017-10-06, 04:32 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Keboh View Post
Actually, Kaepernick started by sitting, but a Green Beret discussed it with him and told him that it would be more respectful to kneel, rather than sit. That is why he started kneeling; out of respect.

http://www.snopes.com/veteran-kaeper...a-knee-anthem/



You can only make so much of a difference from the bottom up. There is a HUGE problem with institutional racism in this country that can't be solved by speaking with the youths in the 'hoods.
Kapernick sitting was referenced in my post. I don't feel the need to elaborate the intricate details as to why his physical posture changed. His reason for doing so did not change.

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Originally Posted by Karlen View Post
NFL didn't do anything about the teams and the anthem until the DoD paid for it in 2009.

But you already knew that, since you're clearly up to speed on the subject.
The National Anthem has been played at sporting events for much longer than 8 years, and I don't see the relevance of singling out the NFL in my post.
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Originally Posted by phreakdna View Post
just some quick notes on the anthem that is being so 'disrespected':
- it was written by a slave-owning, anti-abolitionist that advocated for sending black people back to Africa as a solution and who openly thought that blacks were an inferior race of people (not uncommon but like Robert E Lee, when his only real contribution was being a racist asshole, its harder to celebrate him)
- but more than focusing on the man, a seemingly relevant fact is that the third verse isn't sung in part because its about celebrating a victory over freed slaves
- the Star Spangled Banner wasn't confirmed as the National Anthem until 1931 after Woodrow Wilson declared it so in 1916 in large part to help out the career of his daughter who had just done a rendition of it to make money.


and for all of the military symbolism that people want to place on the flag and the national anthem, they represent far more than our military, our fallen heroes and our first responders... the flag and the national anthem represent all of us - the best and the worst of us - and the idea that to criticize any part of our nation as part of an effort to challenge it to be better as disrespecting all of it, seems to miss the fact that one of the best things we've done as a nation is strive to get better. to do things the right way and to sacrifice for the greater good. other nations do the same thing but we've historically been better at it which is why we're at the top of the heap. people that have served have my undying gratitude for being willing to do something I wasn't but that doesn't mean they get to take the symbolism of the flag in its entirety. that isn't the bargain that we as a nation make when they serve(d). the flag is far more than that and it kind of pisses me off that people want to reduce it to that.
Well now, if you really want to give history lessons, we can always keep going with the "yeah, but's" regarding human conquest to the beginning of human kind.

I will easily concede that the flag stands for more than just our military achievements. It does represent all of us. But I will still see it as a symbol of what got the US to where we are today. It's my opinion, sorry if you don't like it. As I said, good or bad, it represents who we are as a nation. All achievements and mistakes made along the way.
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Unread 2017-10-06, 04:55 PM   #49
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I think it's important to note he changed his expression because of respect. If you don't understand why that's relevant, I can't help ya any more.

The pledge didn't begin in sports as a sign of respect to the vets or the country, but to rile up drunk fans in the later innings of baseball games to keep the energy up

Last edited by Keboh; 2017-10-06 at 05:09 PM..
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Unread 2017-10-06, 05:13 PM   #50
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I think it's important to note he changed his expression because of respect. If you don't understand why that's relevant, I can't help ya any more.

The pledge didn't begin in sports as a sign of respect to the vets or the country, but to rile up drunk fans in the later innings of baseball games to keep the energy up
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