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Unread 2018-01-12, 02:46 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Ricerking13 View Post
I assume you just aren't putting much work into this... it's not feasible (let alone ethical to take from company profits and directly give it to the public). THE TOTAL tax cost is $1.5T, not just the corporate part.

It's 1.5T cost over 10 years... that has a breakdown of something like this (i don't have the particulars):

Annualized cost of tax cuts: 155B per year

Lowering tax brackets -60B

Lowering corporate rates -100B
Doubling Standard deduction -40B
Eliminating most deductions +40B
Raising estate tax exclusions -5B
Expected economic gain +10B


So while yes if you look at the tax cuts as a whole, your math could check out. When you look at the tax cuts in reality on how they work and how we got to that $1.5T, it's not remotely close to do-able to give beneficial raises to people.

The bolded items above, already gave money back to people... the portion allotted to corporate rates is all that is there to do what you are talking about.
yes Jason, I'm talking about scrapping the entire mouth-breathing bill not just the corporate part. the primary goal of the bill by the person that actually conceived it and did the heavy lifting (I'm not entirely convinced Trump could read and understand it generally much less understand it to the level required to say its his or he was the driving force behind it):
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/02/56788...atch-the-facts
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...In an NPR interview Thursday, Ryan offered a detailed defense of the tax bill. What follows are some of Ryan's statements, in bold — and some of the facts behind them.

"We wanted a middle-class tax cut. We wanted to have a system that's more fair, much simpler."
...Ryan said the bill was "designed" as a middle-class tax cut...
so the primary stated goal is to get more money in to the hands of the middle class... that's why I'm saying (over and over again) that this was a really terribly-designed bill if you actually believe the bullshit that Republicans said/say about it. it would be far more efficient to actually help the middle class directly than it is to give the money we're borrowing to corporations and the wealthiest among us and just hope/pray that they do the thing that they said the bill was primarily for in the first place.



let's play a game called I Like Bob. Bob works at Acme Inc, who is sitting on record levels of capital, in an okay but overall kinda crappy and easily transferable job. I like Bob so much that I think he deserves a break in the form of money that he can use to buy things and make his life easier. To facilitate this I take out a loan in the name of Bob's kids and have two options for that money:
1. Give the money to Acme who I hope will then take ~1/10th of it and give it to Bob in the form of a one-time bonus check.1/2 of it will be used to buyback shares and increase dividends for stock Bob couldn't really afford to own more than a couple shares in the first place despite having worked there for 20 years. The remaining 2/5ths will be spent acquiring a competitor of Acme who has their own employees some of whom are redundant. Thankfully Bob survives this first round of "streamlining" the two companies but now he's got to work 15% harder to cover the new responsibilities that come with an expanded company, but his job is secure (for now).
2. Give the money to Bob directly and hope that he buys things with it that Acme and other companies that employ their own Bobs make, driving up their sales while getting Bob some shiny new things to make his life easier.

If my stated goal is to help Bob, which option seems the most likely to have the greatest benefit for Bob in your opinion?

Now, personally, I would prefer Option #3 where we don't borrow anything in the name of Bob's kids since the economy is doing pretty well and we might even be able to pay off some of the debt incurred previously making Bob comfortable previously but that's not the game we're playing today.
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Unread 2018-01-12, 03:05 PM   #377
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....what that guy said.
So we borrowed 1T/yr to keep the economy floating and make our president look good.

At least now we have a president that can do it for 150B/yr. I'll bet when its done, the 1.5T will actually be 0.
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Unread 2018-01-12, 03:31 PM   #378
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So we borrowed 1T/yr to keep the economy floating and make our president look good.

At least now we have a president that can do it for 150B/yr. I'll bet when its done, the 1.5T will actually be 0.
No, we just borrowed $1T over the course of 8 years to reverse the recession, which worked.

The other $7T (I'm not going to actually verify this number, so it may be way off) was from operating in a deficit, which was carried over from the previous administration. Operating in that deficit was necessary, because cutting expenses to eliminate the deficit would have flat out destroyed our economy.

As the economy grew, the deficit shrank under Obama. The economy is currently strong (which logically speaking is the best time to reduce the deficit) and Trump wants to add to the deficit instead.

Edit: I just want to add something in here... There is certainly the possibility that our economy will boom, revenues will exceed expectations and the costs of the bill will be met and then some. I sincerely hope that's what happens. But it's a very risky gamble, because if it doesn't, that deficit is just going to get larger and larger until something gives. Companies aren't going to collectively bail out the government when it starts to crumble under that debt load. They'll just jump ship and take their cash to another country.
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Unread 2018-01-12, 03:53 PM   #379
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I'm not going to get into the complexities of tax plan revisions because honestly, it's a bit over my head. With that said and as jwdb1fish noted, I'm in the M&A business and I'm privy to the financials of the target companies being pursued by my clients. It's boggling to me the cash a lot of these companies are sitting on. Most of them and doing very well and life is good for the company and employees seem generally happy. Many of these companies are looking for buyers and/or investors to expand and grow their business. Most are looking to hire. Times are good for most businesses except perhaps those in the metals refining and O&G industry. Metals and oil prices simply aren't strong right now and haven't been for quite some time.

Then I look at my friends and people I'm acquaintances with in Kansas City and throughout the country. They represent all walks of life, 20 to 50 y/or, white collar to blue collar, $30k/yr to $300K/yr compensation. I can't remember the last time I had a friend tell me they felt significantly underpaid for what they do. Additionally, many friends have moved careers to make more money because the jobs and opportunity was there.

Then I look at the financial market and my own personal investments. It's downright shocking to me the performance since ~2010 to present time, especially early 2015 to now. I could not have imagined the growth of my assets in this short timeframe. Admittedly, it doesn't seem possible or real. I also sadly believe it's overvalued and I'm a bit concerned about how hard it will correct.

I fear this tax revision in some way will result in a massive correction due to companies acting fat drunk and stupid. Like many have pointed out, this tax revision "stimulus" makes absolutely no sense. Yes, we're in dire need of tax reform, but this makes absolutely no sense to cut corporate taxes so significantly. We're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Simple as that. Like ForceFed noted, THIS IS THE TIME to be paying down your debts. It's a perfect storm and only the GOP could approach something like this with such stupidity.

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Unread 2018-01-12, 05:34 PM   #380
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I'm not going to get into the complexities of tax plan revisions because honestly, it's a bit over my head. With that said and as jwdb1fish noted, I'm in the M&A business and I'm privy to the financials of the target companies being pursued by my clients. It's boggling to me the cash a lot of these companies are sitting on. Most of them and doing very well and life is good for the company and employees seem generally happy. Many of these companies are looking for buyers and/or investors to expand and grow their business. Most are looking to hire. Times are good for most businesses except perhaps those in the metals refining and O&G industry. Metals and oil prices simply aren't strong right now and haven't been for quite some time.

Then I look at my friends and people I'm acquaintances with in Kansas City and throughout the country. They represent all walks of life, 20 to 50 y/or, white collar to blue collar, $30k/yr to $300K/yr compensation. I can't remember the last time I had a friend tell me they felt significantly underpaid for what they do. Additionally, many friends have moved careers to make more money because the jobs and opportunity was there.

Then I look at the financial market and my own personal investments. It's downright shocking to me the performance since ~2010 to present time, especially early 2015 to now. I could not have imagined the growth of my assets in this short timeframe. Admittedly, it doesn't seem possible or real. I also sadly believe it's overvalued and I'm a bit concerned about how hard it will correct.

I fear this tax revision in some way will result in a massive correction due to companies acting fat drunk and stupid. Like many have pointed out, this tax revision "stimulus" makes absolutely no sense. Yes, we're in dire need of tax reform, but this makes absolutely no sense to cut corporate taxes so significantly. We're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Simple as that. Like ForceFed noted, THIS IS THE TIME to be paying down your debts. It's a perfect storm and only the GOP could approach something like this with such stupidity.
I don't get how you can make such a decent post... and end with such a retarded comment.

Only the GOP huh? The DNC doesn't do stupid stuff?

You live in a fantasy world.
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Unread 2018-01-12, 06:56 PM   #381
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I don't get how you can make such a decent post... and end with such a retarded comment.

Only the GOP huh? The DNC doesn't do stupid stuff?

You live in a fantasy world.
Insightful, thought out, logical..

..thennn spiteful and polarizing.

The problem with most political conversations right there, folks.
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Unread 2018-01-12, 11:53 PM   #382
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When was the last time the GOP actually helped fix the deficit? The 1960s?
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Unread 2018-01-13, 04:44 AM   #383
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When was the last time the GOP actually helped fix the deficit? The 1960s?
Youre missing the point.

If Trump had said "why do we allow so much immigration from under developed countries?" You wouldn't have even heard about it. There would be no controversy, it wouldn't have been an issue. But he didn't. He said "why do we let so many immigrants in from these shit hole countries," and instantly it's ignorant, offensive, and boarder line racist.

The language you use matters when you are trying to convey a point. Throwing insults around is counter productive and unnecessary. Don't be a Trump.
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Unread 2018-01-14, 11:54 AM   #384
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Youre missing the point.

If Trump had said "why do we allow so much immigration from under developed countries?" You wouldn't have even heard about it. There would be no controversy, it wouldn't have been an issue. But he didn't. He said "why do we let so many immigrants in from these shit hole countries," and instantly it's ignorant, offensive, and boarder line racist.

The language you use matters when you are trying to convey a point. Throwing insults around is counter productive and unnecessary. Don't be a Trump.
My point is the GOP has a well-documented history over the past 60 years or so of grossly expanding the deficient all the while helping the wealthy. On the flip side, Democrats have been largely the ones to clean up the mess.

The current GOP is an absolute disaster overall and it's no wonder we got a tax plan like this. It's also no wonder so many of them are running for the hills now as they don't want their legacy tied to this administration.

I have NO SKIN in this game when it comes to party affiliation. I really don't like either party and vote for the person I think is best for this country. I'm very much about country over party. Yes, I have more liberal views than conservative, but wouldn't hesitate to vote for a Republican if I thought they were the better choice. Having an extreme and one-sided view is not a good way to live one's life. Reality lives in the middle.

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Unread 2018-01-14, 12:20 PM   #385
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My point is the GOP has a well-documented history over the past 60 years or so of grossly expanding the deficient all the while helping the wealthy. On the flip side, Democrats have been largely the ones to clean up the mess.

The current GOP is an absolute disaster overall and it's no wonder we got a tax plan like this. It's also no wonder so many of them are running for the hills now as they don't want their legacy tied to this administration.

I have NO SKIN in this game when it comes to party affiliation. I really don't like either party and vote for the person I think is best for this country. I'm very much about country over party. Yes, I have more liberal views than conservative, but wouldn't hesitate to vote for a Republican if I thought they were the better choice. Having an extreme and one-sided view is not a good way to live one's life. Reality lives in the middle.
What planet do you live on?
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Unread 2018-01-14, 12:42 PM   #386
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What planet do you live on?


The one where vaccines don't work.

Herd mentality? Not Dave B, bro.
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Unread 2018-01-14, 02:08 PM   #387
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Having an extreme and one-sided view is not a good way to live one's life. Reality lives in the middle.
You ought to move from your extreme laft view and move more to the middle then.
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Unread 2018-01-14, 07:31 PM   #388
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You ought to move from your extreme laft view and move more to the middle then.
That's hilarious coming from you.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 10:51 AM   #389
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At the same time Walmart officials announced an increase in starting pay and bonuses for their employees, they were taking actions that will likely end up placing thousands of those employees on the unemployment line.

Since that announcement, which was tied to the Trump tax cuts, Walmart announced plans to close 63 Sam’s Club stores across the United States, a move that is expected to put thousands of employees out of work and the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette reported Saturday, the company is laying off 1,000 employees from its corporate headquarters in Bentonville, Arkansas.

The company’s long range plans signal thousands more may be put out of work on a permanent basis.

Recode reports a Walmart company initiative, Project Kepler, is designed to create physical stores that will operate without cashiers and checkers. The stores will be promoted as making it easier for customers, but Walmart stores across the country have already installed more and more self-service lines that have enabled Walmart to trim the number of employees it needs.

Even the portion of the Walmart news that has been positive for the company has its critics.

A column on the CNN website by Jonathan Tasini, author of The Essential Bernie Sanders And His Vision for America, noted that while credit for the increase in minimum wage for Walmart employees has been given to the recently passed tax cut legislation, other factors may have contributed just as much or more to Walmart’s decision.

One of Walmart’s chief competitors, Target, recently announced it was raising its starting pay to $11 an hour and Walmart has also been a victim of the low unemployment rates in the United States over the past several months, Tasini said.

The dwindling workforce available has forced WalMart to increase its salaries in order to attract new employees.

Another decision that brought positive publicity to Walmart, the awarding of bonuses to employees, while certainly welcomed, is not quite the act of generosity it has been portrayed to be, according to Tasini.

As the company noted, the bonus was a one-time event and while the $1,000 figure was touted in Walmart news releases and in articles based on those news releases, only a small number of employees will receive $1,000 bonuses.

The bonuses will be awarded based on employees’ longevity and with the high amount of turnover at Walmart stores across the country, few of the company’s 1.5 million employees will be taking home that much money.

Tasini referred to the bonuses as “an almost cost-free PR stunt.”

Some of those employees who receive bonuses may soon find them accompanied by less take-home pay.

The Democrat-Gazette article indicated Walmart is eliminating co-manager positions at its stores, but making those who currently hold those positions eligible for lower-paying director positions.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 10:59 AM   #390
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Your first mistake would be applying to work at Walmart in the first place.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 11:04 AM   #391
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it's ignorant, offensive, and boarder line racist.
and I'm trying to understand how any rational person legitimate looks at him as only borderline racist; other than finding foreign nationals hot, most of what he's said or done of note in his adult life that involves race has been either openly or vaguely racist.


just since he started running for President:
- Nigerians won't want to go back to their huts
- Haitians have AIDS
- Haiti and African nations are shitholes but we want more immigrants from one of the whitest countries on Earth
- Mexican immigrants are rapists and criminals
- Americans with Mexican heritage cannot fairly judge his frauds
- a "hot" American female with Korean background should be on the North Korea negotiating team
- he constantly highlights acts of terror by any non-whites and ignores terrorism committed by whites
- Puerto Ricans are apparently lazy and are largely to blame for why their recovery efforts have lagged far behind recoveries on the mainland
- Black members of Congress repeatedly only represent minority constituents
- retweeting openly racist and neo-Nazi Twitter users with names like WhiteGenocideTM over and over again
- calls all urban areas (where the blacks live apparently) hellscapes
- actually uses the phrase "The Blacks"

and that's literally just the ones off the top of my head. if he wasn't a racist bag of shit, he would at least be conscious of the fact that he needs to mask his more racist tendencies... but he doesn't, imo, because he doesn't see any need to - the racist things that he says are 'true' for him so its okay that he says them...

I don't agree with them but I can appreciate that people see him as a vessel to get to other people's desired political goals/policies (since he appears to have none of his own), or as a backlash to political correctness that likely has gone too far and therefore support him for those reasons but I don't understand why we *can't* just acknowledge what he openly flaunts every couple of weeks; that he's a racist. I don't understand why any rational person would tiptoe around that at this point... he doesn't.

help me understand why people tiptoe around the obvious
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Unread 2018-01-15, 11:04 AM   #392
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Your first mistake would be applying to work at Walmart in the first place.
Yet they are the nation's largest, private employer.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 12:13 PM   #393
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Your first mistake would be applying to work at Walmart in the first place.
Ouch....
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Unread 2018-01-15, 01:28 PM   #394
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and I'm trying to understand how any rational person legitimate looks at him as only borderline racist; other than finding foreign nationals hot, most of what he's said or done of note in his adult life that involves race has been either openly or vaguely racist.

Not true, he was the darling of the left until he decided to run on the GOP ticket.

The left is the most racist party our there. They use minorities and other races as a tool to further their agendas and maintain their power. Nancy and Chuck themselves would be down there building the wall if illegals were voting for the GOP.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 01:29 PM   #395
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The two items are unrelated.

They have had plans to close the unprofitable Sams stores for awhile.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 01:38 PM   #396
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Not true, he was the darling of the left until he decided to run on the GOP ticket.

The left is the most racist party our there. They use minorities and other races as a tool to further their agendas and maintain their power. Nancy and Chuck themselves would be down there building the wall if illegals were voting for the GOP.
couple of things:
- he was never the darling of anyone. ever. that's bipartisan until 2012 when he started saying racist nonsense about President Obama... then his darling status began to emerge.

- its funny and telling that rather than address the proof that he's been racist for years even as he's run for and been President you want to lob charges at others. I'll even give you the credit to say that its not simple deflection but rather whataboutism but that still doesn't address the fact that my question was "how does anyone not acknowledge the fact that he's a racist?" and had nothing to do with how racist anyone else is.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 01:51 PM   #397
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I disagree that he is a racist, he is only being portrayed as a racist by the liberal media.

While the real racist are being given a pass by the liberal media.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 02:47 PM   #398
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Fake news, liberal media, he's not a racist, it's Obama's fault.....
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Unread 2018-01-15, 02:49 PM   #399
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The two items are unrelated.

They have had plans to close the unprofitable Sams stores for awhile.
LOL. You still don't get it. The bonuses were clearly a PR stunt by Walmart to ease the shock, public outcry, and stock impacts of thousands being laid off. The announcements were certainly related.

Even more amusing and interesting is that ~40% of these bonuses go right back to the government. Funny how that works.
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Unread 2018-01-15, 03:11 PM   #400
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LOL. You still don't get it. The bonuses were clearly a PR stunt by Walmart to ease the shock, public outcry, and stock impacts of thousands being laid off. The announcements were certainly related.

Even more amusing and interesting is that ~40% of these bonuses go right back to the government. Funny how that works.


Taxes true up at end of year, Dave.


How many of those recipients are in a 40% tax bracket?
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